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I have finally got around to scanning what I consider to be two of the most telling pages in the White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs book.  They are pages 52 and 53. They provide definitive, though admittedly vague, proof that:

1) Chaos Dwarfs deal with Chaos
Chaos Dwarfs can use only two allies, Chaos and Orcs and Goblins.  This shows that we do work with Chaos with some regularity.  It is important to note that most Army Books during the time could ally themselves with nearly all other armies, good with good, bad with bad.  The fact that we can only ally ourselves with 2 of the bad armies is notable.

2) Hashut is a lesser Chaos God
I have quoted it before, but many scoffed at me: "The Chaos Dwarfs have their own Chaos god, Hashut, who is completely distinct and uniquely associated with Chaos Dwarfs.

3) Daemons could be used by the Chaos Dwarfs
It directly states that in the case of the Chaos list, you may also choose Daemons, which at the time were a seperate section, like that of war machines.



Submitted for your evaluation.  Let the debate begin.

Hashut's Blessing Wrote:
I prefer to use mine in the style of Hashut ISN'T a Chaos god. that is what I first thought when I found out about the guys and so my army is like that. It is their opinion. Of course, I will not say that Hashut ISN'T a Chaos god because it is stated that he is, but people are ignorant and don't always know things. He he he.

Also it is fair to say most every god in Warhammer is chaos in origin, especially in the older editions of Warhammer.  That doesn't mean they belong as a subset to "The Big Four."

Hashut is the God of Chaos Dwarfs, not the God of Chaos Mortals. Wink

I think it also mentions that the Chaos magic that came through thr warp affected all life, and that's why Chaos can draw power from such things.

Liger

Most of those points I'm happy with. I'm ok with all the alliances, so long as it's certain that DZ are a separate society and army, and that CDs aren't underneath Chaos (which is the way it is right now I believe, so that's fine).

I've assumed that Hashut was a lesser Chaos God for a long while, so that's all fine. As for this bit:

3) Daemons could be used by the Chaos Dwarfs
It directly states that in the case of the Chaos list, you may also choose Daemons, which at the time were a seperate section, like that of war machines.

Does this mean that Daemons of Hashut would be possible? Could Hashut have Daemons in the same way as the Big Four, or is not strong enough? I think it could be cool if Hashut was turned into a Chaos God, to have the Taurus as a Greater Daemon, and then some smaller Daemonic Bulls as the "fast Daemonic unit" and possibly bull headed warriors as the "basic Daemonic unit". Dunno if this would be possible though, but it could be a nice thing to add to a Temple of Hashut based army.
Hey Liger! Good to have you aboard.

Besides the Big Four, there are many lesser daemons.  Furies are such daemons.  That is, not all daemons belong to the Big Four.  It is conceivable that there are daemons that follow Hashut.  Even ones that he has influenced, as he influences Chaos Dwarfs.  It's fun to think about what Daemons of Hashut might look like.

Lord Zarkov Wrote:
Read This:

near the bottom of the download document it has descriptions of the old daemons of hashut


At the end it says:

Quote:
Sources
The main sources for the Hobgoblins is WFB 2nd & 3rd editions, and the 3rd edition WFB Armies book.  The locations in here are all shown on the WFB map that came with WD 173, and is also in WD 161.  Some of the material came from WFB 2nd  & 3rd ed, but most of it came from Rick Priestley’s articles in WD 161-163.  All of the writing except for the descriptions of the Great Taurus, Hobhound, and Lammasu are done by Garett Lepper.

Written by Garett Lepper
glepper@earthlink.net


So I am guessing the daemon stuff comes from WFB 2nd/3rd edition? r did he just make it up?  It doesn't really cite sources throughout the text.

Pretty cool though.

TheVoice

The daemons of Hashut were from the original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. There were three types as I remember it. I believe they went the way of boar and wolf centaurs. Shall I have a root around and see if I can find the decriptions?
TFB, you are confusing Gods with Patrons.  Sigmar was not a God, he was a person.  He was elevated to God status by people.  Sigmar has no real power as a god.

Other Gods of actual power originate from Chaos.  When the Chaos gates were ripped open, the world was infected with Chaos.  This brought about all the abominations on the world, including things like Skaven and Beastman.  Even Skaven had a Greater Daemon.  Daemons are the manifestations of the Gods that control them.  Thus Hashut could have daemons.

Liger

Also (though I don't have any sources or evidence on this), in my personal view I see Hashut as more of a Chaos God than, say, Khaine, or one of the Elven Gods. I know that all Gods hold links with Chaos, but is it possible that some proper "lesser Chaos Gods" are linked more with the Big Four, and that Hashut, The Horned Rat (possibly even the Great Maw etc, but that's just random speculation by me Tongue ) are part of this group, and so more likely to potentially have Daemons, whereas the Elven Gods don't really grant this.

Still, I'm only reallly basing this on the existence Vermin Lord (Old Skaven Greater Daemon), which may not even exist in proper fluff anymore, but still, I think that it could be possible for Hashut to have some Daemons, but then perhaps he's not powerful enough.

Also, for me it makes more sense for the Taurus to be a Greater Daemon, than for it just to be a heavily mutated Chaos Dwarf. The Lammasu also, I can see as being like an Exalted Daemon, or even Daemon Prince (if the fluff happened to get updated). These are just my opinions though.

Ghorak, Herald of Hashut

:praisehashut:

I came up with CD daemon fluffage a while ago. Let me go see if I can find it.

Liger

Ok, I can see what you mean. However, picking up on this:

Hashut's Blessing Wrote:
The Chaos gods are so powerful because of they are represented by raw emotions that people cannot control. E.G. Greed, anger, lust, hatred.


Well, what if Hashut was like the Big Four in this respect, but where Khorne was fuelled by the anger and hatred of the population, Hashut could be fuelled by ideas and development, in the same way that the Chaos Dwarfs themselves strive to develop their technology and machines.

I remember this idea coming up in a thread on Hand of Hashut, and I thought I'd throw it out here. I don't know whether I really believe it could be possible (even theoretically/logically), but I think it's an interesting way of looking at Hashut.

itcamefromthedeep

---Hashut works just fine as a God of Chaos, and having deamons is just fine as well, as long as they never see the army list. Mention them in the fluff all you like, but keep them the 'ell out of the list.

---For a while I actually considered making a hordes of Chaos list to represent a host of Khaine. An Eldar Avatar converted a bit, with stats as a Keeper of Sectrets. Some Chosen made it represented by converted Swordmasters. Some other heavy conversion work filled out the rest with uber-elves. Never actually followed through, though.

hobblin

I thought all the gods in the warhammer world came out of the chaos gate,guess I was wrong.Also some people are going to say that sigmar was a god but diden't come out of the chaos gate.Well sigmar was not a god he was a man.

Perturabo

Zarkov, that is spot on. That is exactly how it has been made out to be in all the Chaos fluff I have read.

I would say that Sigmar is powerful now due to the worship of the Empire, with his soul not having that much to do with it. He is fed by the belief of his followers, in the same way as all the other gods.

Perturabo

The Old Ones were aliens, rather than gods. They used magic, but built devices to hold back Chaos itself.

The Great Maw is something I'm not too sure about. It seems likely though that the Ogres were suitably impressed by the impact of the meteorite that it eventually formed a presence in the Aether.

Hashash

Having long (read: since release) worked with the OK army, I always had the idea of The Maw was possibly a Non-aligned Daemon, sealed in a meteorite. Possibly it was a Daemon Prince? They have been known to posses quite a limitless variety of sife and form. Also it is stated that Daemon Princes are worshipped (atleast by Marauders) as gods in their own right, and are known to posses nigh godlike powers.

This has also lead me to blive that perhaps Hashut is an extremely powerfull Daemon Prince (= low power chaos God??)

Hashash

minty Wrote:
the first is in most chaos dwarf things and describes hashut as a lesser chaos power, as in one of the ones mentioned in the chaos book but not one of the 5 greater powers (and i do mean 5, name the fifth)


5th would have to be either Undivided (modern view) or Malal (Old view)
As Undivided is not a pesonified god as such, that seems a bit silly
But as Malal was removed from the mainstream fluff long ago, he seems a tad iffy.

To anyone who doesn't (like me) spend all their free time toiling in ancient fluff, Malal has an article on Wikipedia. He was the old 5th God of Chaos, the incarnation of Chaos as a Destructive force, even agains itself.

Malal's entry on Wiki

Nehan

Quote:
(and i do mean 5, name the fifth)

other than the great four, I know of Malal (who isn't a possession of GW anymore), Horned Rat (whose identity is unknown), Necoho and Zuvassin (though these two appeared only in a campaign book for WFRP1 and are obviously minor, but very interesting deities).

grimsnikk

I personally find it interesting that although Malal is no longer a member of the Chaos pantheon, his position seems suitably filled by Belakor.

The back of the HoC book references that when the Harbringer would appear the army of the current everchosen would fall to their knees in worship, as Belakor's appearence was "proof" that their leader was the true chosen.  His description is much less tangible than his model suggests.  His wings are described as intagible darkness that filled the heavens, certainly bigger than the 15ish feet that he is in game.

Iunno, being of shadow? Betrayed by the big 4, that exists only to twist and destroy their plans whenever possible even though he is unable to fight them head on?  Who exists only to fuel hatred and revenge in his mortal followers?  Sounds like the same guy to me.

I'm personally partial to the idea that the 8 points are the big 4 being the +, and Hashut, THe Horned rat, Khaine and The Maw forming the smaller x.

I like (and I forget who said its) idea that Hashut was originally formed by the normal dwarfs.  Their virtues of respect for age, desire for wealth and acquistion of skill being twisted into a will to subjugate all those beneath them, greed and arrogance as Hashut was born.  Hashut appearing to them in the great calamity is essentially their version of the Eldar birthing Slaanesh.

Also, technically any fantasy god COULD have daemons.  or "daemons".  Obviously you wouldn't have giant horned monsters screaming for the blood of those who don't worship, lets say.. Verena.  But Harpies, and Manticores are listed as being manifestions of Khaine (or at least the DEs believe them to be one of the 1000 aspects) even though they have no demonic rules.  Not to say that they believe they just poof out of nothing, because khaine wanted some to appear there right at that second.  I don't think theres anything wrong with believing that Lammasus are an aspect of Hashut.  Thats also to say that even the "good" chaos gods (im just going to refer to them as gods) could have manifestations.  If giant wolves appear to assist an army of the empire, could you not consider that Ulric granting one of his aspects to his human worshippers?  I think its just the normal gods are quite a bit subtler as the things that they represent are too.

Khorne as a great example.  Khorne is the god of battle.  His most common aspects are as a big monster with a battle axe and wings, a giant flayed human with a battle axe, a lion that eats you, and a big monster... that also eats you.  All of which are born from the aether, and clearly of a monstous and horrific design.  His aspects are extreme caricatures of humanity, as his worshippers emphasize extreme pysches.  

Now if another god has a less extreme sphere of influence..  Wouldn't it make sense that they have a less extreme appearence?  Such as the White Dwarf.  One of the dwarfen ancestor gods who will mysteriously appear in battle out from a normal unit to fight against ancestral enemies and somehow "disappear" after the battle.  He's not summoned magically in the battle by cultists, and poofs back when he's done.  Not to say that he couldn't be "summoned".  By if all the dwarfs were chanting to him, or engraved his likeness onto their armour, he might be considereably more likely to make an appearence in battle.  I think the big 4 have such monstrous deamons as it reflects them and the members of humanity that follow them.  Manifestations of non-chaos gods would have considerably less monstrous aspects.

(not to say that Ulric isn't an aetheric god, I'm just not going to call him a "chaos god" as that seems a bit silly.  Yes i know, they all come from the same place.)

Lord Darkash

there is an article on wikipedia about chaos gods. heres a segment:

Other Chaos Gods

Besides the currently four major gods, there exist and have existed other gods, both major and lesser. The other Chaos gods who have been mentioned in the Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 settings include:

    * Malal - A renegade Chaos God, representing the paradox of Chaos fighting against itself. He is no longer mentioned in current background material.
    * Be'lakor - also known as The Dark Master, Be'lakor was once a mighty champion of the Dark Gods and the first mortal to gain immortality in Warhammer Fantasy[citation needed], but he fell from grace and was stripped of his power. He is now considered a Daemon Prince, but has attempted to attain godhood. His power is such that he can grant his followers (called "Dark Emissaries") magic spells similar to other gods.
    * Hashut - in the Warhammer Fantasy setting, Hashut is the god of the Chaos Dwarfs. He represents aspects of industry, fire, volcanoes, darkness, hammers and lightning, and shares some aspects of ancient Babylonian gods.
    * Kweethul - in the Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned book (an early sourcebook), a Skaven who was a minor chaos god in his own right.
    * Horned Rat - in the Warhammer Fantasy setting, the Horned Rat is the god of the Skaven. He represents aspects of disease, magic, the power of Chaos itself, rats, and other characteristics of the Skaven race.
    * Necoho - in Warhammer Fantasy, a renegade minor god known as the "Doubter", representing aspects of agnosticism and atheism.
    * Shingai - in Warhammer 40,000, newly created chaos god, he was a Daemon Prince that sacrificed millions of innocents. He ascended to god-hood by razing a planet and siphoning the fear, terror and panic that the inhabitants gave off. Unlike the other chaos gods he walks among his followers, so whether he is a true god or just a tremendously powerful Daemon Prince could be called into account.
    * Zuvassin - in Warhammer Fantasy, a renegade minor god known as the "Great Undoer", representing a desire to foil the efforts of others.
    * An'sl, Mo'rcck,and Phraz-Etar - minor gods mentioned in older background material for Warhammer 40,000 (Johnson, 1999). Other than their names being puns for (Bryan) Ansell, (Michael) Moorcock, and (Frank) Frazetta and the fact that they are minor gods, nothing is known of them.
    * Screaming God Child - A god in Warhammer Fantasy which looks like an eyeless child. Not much is known about him except that he has been sealed in another dimension known as Othernesse since the beginning of time. If reached he will answer any question but will never allow anyone to leave his nursery/cage. Malus Darkblade tricked the Screaming God Child and left Othernesse but the Screaming God Child captured him and imprisoned a chaos daemon known as Tz'arkan within him.
    * Others - there are a multitude of other unnamed gods and cults. In the Warhammer 40,000 setting, for example, the Chaos Space Marines called Raptors and Obliterators each have their own cults, the natures of which are virtually unknown. Also in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, the fallen Dark Angel known as Cypher is protected by an unknown entity of great power, although it is unclear if this entity is a Chaos God. Background material for Warhammer Fantasy mentions many other minor gods with very little background beyond their names and aspects, such as Khakkekk (goblin god of blood), Atagro (god of beasts), Meneloth (elven god of pleasure), Obscuras (god of shadows and hidden things) and Mermedus (god of the sea). It has been hinted that these lesser deities are deceptive alias' of the four major Chaos Gods. For example, Khakkekk draws parallels with Khorne, both in name and aspect.
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