should wolfboyz lose fast cav status if they take LA and shields?
command prices should be addressed...
well it really was a question i posted...
the RoR hobgoblin wolfboyz also keep their fast cav status even tho they are like armored...
perhpas itz a hobgob thing...
i still think hobgobs should be non minimum core... puts them on the level of dogs in other armies...
I don't think that our bolt throwers should be more than 35pts given that the O&G one is 35pts with an extra crewmember and the dwarf one is 45pts with tough crew.
I disagree with the ES point, it needs a points increase but not limiting.
I also disagree with bolt throwers going up to 40pts, as said the O&G one is 35 with an extra crewmember so that is really the absolute maximum cost for ours.
BC should count as infantry for weapons and should probably have one of their attacks as 'trample'
We should also IMO have a 4+sv armour.
A stated by metro, command prices definitly need to be fixed
I think Hobgoblins should be required to have alight armor and cost 4 points base prior to being equipped with shields, spears, or 2nd hand weapons and in order to make them fully worth 1 point above Goblins (rather than 1/2 a point) and to fit their fluff they should get a base I of 3 (so they are as fast as humans at least). A minimum unit of 15 should also be good, 20 is too much and 10 is too low. (of course, I imagine anyone smart will buy basic warriors in teams of 30 or so anyway)
Archers and Wolf Riders should be seperate entries...
Beyond that... well, I have a whole list of ideas of what to do with them.
I agree with all things mentioned in the first post.
Furthermore the Taurus should go up in points as the critter is simply to cheap if compared to griffons.
Blunderbusses should roll a number of hits equal to the unit strength for all units in the fire zone. This way chariots and monsters would no loger ignore their volley. A maximum strength of 4 would be in order than imho.
I think the CD list could be helped quite a bit by making Dwarf units mainstay units (like clanrats in the Skaven army list) which would prevent people from tanking out on cheap Hobgoblin units and bolt throwers. This would go a long way towards mitigating the broken-ness of the list, such as it is.
You're correct about the Bull Centaur infantray/cavalry issue. That one really needs to be cleared up.
i think the list is pretty fine, and very hard to fight against
Other Individual:
Spears (& possibly additional HW) option for HG infantry
Hellcannon as 1 rare
Spear and bow options for Hobgoblin Hero
My comments on listed
1)Yes, but then give him the same statline as the current Dwarf hero
2) Lots of thing need changing
3)possibly to balance out improvements, but I would prefer points bump
4)I3 and +1pt I like, but not forced LA (needs to be an option for archers say)
5)Definitly, for CD characters and all BC; but optional
6)I think all HG cavalry as FC makes sense in their context in the army, they are cowardly harasers who can add a bit of punch to a combat rather than heavy cavalry. At their points cost I could se them being used in 2 or 3 (mabey even 4) ranks as heavy cavalry if not FC, and Hobgoblin wolfriders hitting hard with 5 static CR just seems wrong IMO
7)For CD & BC characters I agree
8)I think the current non-miniumum works fine and is nice and fluffy (CD would definitly make use of simply massed slaves as cannon fodder)
9)disagree
I agree with all the generals ones though
4)I3 and +1pt I like, but not forced LA (needs to be an option for archers say)
I should have clarified.
Hobgoblin Warriors: Human stats with -1Ld (or Goblins with +1WS, +1I and no Fear Elf) starting equipment Light Armor and Hand Weapon - Can buy Spears, 2nd hand weapon and/or Shields - 4pts
Hobgoblin Archers: Same stats, stats equipment - bow and hand weapon, can buy Light Armor for +1pt (Possible addition if perhaps not for CD list as much as a spin-off list: 1 unit can buy skirmish, 1 unit can buy poisoned arrows) - 5pts
6)I think all HG cavalry as FC makes sense in their context in the army, they are cowardly harasers who can add a bit of punch to a combat rather than heavy cavalry. At their points cost I could se them being used in 2 or 3 (mabey even 4) ranks as heavy cavalry if not FC, and Hobgoblin wolfriders hitting hard with 5 static CR just seems wrong IMO
Should work just like Goblins. You get your light armor automatically, but if you buy the shield you lose the Fast Calvary trait. Yes, Oglah Khan's boyz do not-- but they are a special unit that comes with a free character too. Hobgoblin Wolfriders should be primarilly archers. An upgraded warrior version can be made available as a Special Unit, but doesn't need to be available to the CD so much as a bonus unit if you play all HG (see here: http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/show...php?tid=70)
The Hobgoblins shouldn't lose Fast Cavalry, as the RoR doesn't. The reason for this is that they, being roughly human-sized, need much bigger and tougher Wolves (Gorgs?) to carry them, along with whatever meat, spare weapons, rags and shinies they happen to be carrying at the time. The Wolves can therefore support a light-armoured rider, unlike the sleeker, smaller wolves of the Goblins.
Earthshaker: 125 Points, Uses 5" Template to determine area of effect.
Bolt-Thrower: No change.
Bull Centaurs: Infantry Weapons.
Hellcannon: One Rare and One Special.
Hobgoblins and Wolfriders split into two seperate units with seperate min. unit sizes. Option for Spears. I3, +1 Point.
The ES just blocking marching doesn't really work: what about chariots caught in the area?
Not so sure about relentless given that we have access to quite a few fast moving troops.
Bull centaurs using weapons as infantry + trample attack makes sense.
Hobgoblins should stay as fast cav, but if given light armour they lose it (same as gobbos, also mentioned above).
The Hobgoblins shouldn't lose Fast Cavalry, as the RoR doesn't. The reason for this is that they, being roughly human-sized, need much bigger and tougher Wolves (Gorgs?) to carry them, along with whatever meat, spare weapons, rags and shinies they happen to be carrying at the time. The Wolves can therefore support a light-armoured rider, unlike the sleeker, smaller wolves of the Goblins.
Except that if you remember that the Hobgoblin is larger, their armor, shields and weapons will be heavier too since they are built for human size. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that no other Fast Calvary unit in the game gets a save above 5+ except for Oglah Khan's group. It really wouldn't seem fair to offer that ability as a regular core unit and it isn't worth turning them into a special unit over either. Fast Calvary is primarily beneficial to archers anyway (an archer with no facing that can shoot you after fleeing that also gets a 4+ save is a bit much).
Hobgoblins should stay as fast cav, but if given light armour they lose it (same as gobbos, also mentioned above).
Goblin Wolfriders don't lose it when they have light armor, they always have light armor. They lose it when they get shields.
Goblin Wolfriders don't lose it when they have light armor, they always have light armor. They lose it when they get shields.
I didn't realise it had changed in the new book (used to be the other way around).
It's probably handier for WYSIWYG.
hehe... unless you already had shields on your gobbos...
Strange that I am considered to be a "non-Chaos Dwarf player", when I was the only one to give any decent suggestions to fix the list in that thread. And I've only been playing them for over a decade. I wonder how long real Chaos Dwarf players have been playing?
You really don't endear yourself to anyone by claiming you are the only person with decent ideas.
Anyways, I still stand by my suggestions. What I can add is that the Chaos Dwarf Hero should be a carbon copy of the Dwarf Thane, which means he gets T5 instead of his lowered LD, which is nice.
I can't imagine that anyone would really disagree that the Chaos Dwarf Lord and Hero should have identical stats as their normal Dwarven versions. The difference between the two is primarily culture, magic and tactics. Physically and psychologically they should be even.
Lapping Round rule for the Sneaky Gits, I was personally thinking of an altogether different direction for the Sneaky Gits. Namely, a skirmishing unit. With two poisoned hand weapons and poisoned throwing knives. It's something to think about, at least.
Again, I think it is a pretty common censensus that Sneaky Gits should become skirmishers with two poisoned weapons. My version allows them to still remove a rank bonus from a unit they are flanking and allows optional throwing daggers (non-poisoned). But again, I think virtually everyone agrees with the first two points.
So... you really aren't saying anything original here and you've shown no indication that you are the only person whose ideas are to be considered decent.
hehe... they always do...
Is it just me who noticed that this has turned from improving the RH list to completely changing it?
Well, the base problem is that the RH list is a half-formed list that works, but doesn't provide the kind of variety and flexibility that SHOULD be provided by a race's army list. Every other list, to my understanding, has been completely redone, revamped and expanded 2-3 times since the RH list was created and that isn't even counting expansions such as Storm of Chaos that provide a whole list of new troops for specific armies. Point costs are wacky, Unit breakdown and equipment options are all wrong for any current-edition army list, Special Rules are two editions out of date, the Magic Item list is practically nonexistent...
So yeah.... its not about revising the RH list, we SHOULD be working out a totally new army book with the RH list as the basis.
Hobgoblin Fast Cav should always remain Fast Cav, even with armour. Goblin ones do and they're far less skilled on wolfback than our boyz.
Goblins lose Fast Cav if they take Shields.
However, I agree. Hobgoblins are more skilled as riders (employing skills beyond "cling on as long as possible") and as nomads their (far bigger and tougher) wolves can undoubtedly carry larger loads.