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Some people consider the Chaos Dwarf list to be broken, though not all.  Here is a list of some issues that non-Chaos Dwarf players would like addressed.

Emphasis mine.

I personally disagree with the Earthshaker assesment.  But everything else seems good.  Sneaky Gits also need updated rules since lapping around kinda got removed in 7th edition.

Exactly what I think. Earthshaker should perhaps be more expensive. But, well, I like it cheap, he he he. Also, to make life easier, have the 5" template be the 'shake' effect area. It's easier to measure then. But, I prefer the 2d6".

Agree with all those bar the ES one. ESs need to be upped to 130 pnts
IMO.

Ya, those are good points Metro.

So, if we were purely "fixing" the list, we so far have a general consesnus that we should:
Have a Hero of LD9 for balance purposes.
Wolf riders as a separate choice with options for spears and a min. unit size of 5, they lose Fast Cavalry with armours.
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower up in points cost.
Earthshaker needs an increase in points cost.
Bull Centaurs count as infantry for weapon purposes.

A few thing sthat I propose:
All of our characters should come with armour (heavy at least).
Hobgoblins count as core, but you must always have more Chaos Dwarf units (E.G. Can't have two CD and two HG).
Can't remember the others right now.

Also: officially sort out the SG's lap-around rule problem. I believe there have been several solutions proposed.

That may have been what I forgot... He he he.

Don't nerf anything! Cheese is a CD general's best friend on the battlefield. Do not mess around with the BT, or I'll demolish you, as I'm the demolition man!

- Kyte and the Police

Hmm Max st of 4 for blunderbusses makes sense, and I like the idea about BC having one of their attacks as a tramle one.  The bolt throwers are pretty much the same as goblin ones and so should be pointed around the same.

And thats all I can think of now.

Some good suggestions coupled with some rather useless and ignorant responses.

Compared to the original post, all I really disagree with is the boltthrower at 35pts instead of 40, but this is hardly an important matter. The other part is the Earth shaker assesment.

I think it needs to be changed, and the suggestion I have and prefer is to simply make the area effect a march blocking effect. That way it doesn't stop charges, or double up if you already march block your enemy. Nor do you quadrupel the effect if two are fielded which is really quite silly. Price should stay approximately the same, though a smalle tweak either way might be needed.

Asger

Two ESs will not make things move at a quarter rate... But this march blocking thing seems to be a trend.

Multiple ESs aren't cumulative. It halves the movement characteristic, not halves movement.

So, let's take a look at the general consensus and the individuals:


Genral:
LD 9 hero.
HG cavalry minimum unit size=5
HG infantry minimum unit size increase.
HG cavalry can have spears.
HG Bolt thrower increase in price (I think this should only be with an extra crewman).
BCs count as infantry for weapons purposes.
HG cavalry lose Fast Cavalry with armour/shields.
Points cost of command needs sorting.
SG Lap Around rule needs changing.
ES needs points increase.
BBs need a slight revamp. (number of hits=unit strength of enemy)
BCs have one Trample attack and one normal.


Individual wants:
ES march blocks, not halves movement rate.
Nothing to be changed.
Max BB S4.
HGs come with armour and have I3.
A 4+AS available.
HG cavalry don't lose Fast Cavalry regardless. (Makes sense, but also doesn't...)
All characters have heavy armour as standard.
HGs as core but always at least one more unit of CD.
ES is 0-1 or Hellcannon.

So, any of the individual views likely to become general consensus? Any more things or anything I've missed out? (I left out my proposition for the 5" template replacing the 2D6" area affect of the Es because it was purely because it could've been easier, not what I wanted to happen.)

I'm glad to see so much discussion and I really like the fact that people are giving decent reasons. I like all of the suggestions.... I can no longer remember the rest of what I was going to say. Damn.

Strange that I am considered to be a "non-Chaos Dwarf player", when I was the only one to give any decent suggestions to fix the list in that thread. And I've only been playing them for over a decade. I wonder how long real Chaos Dwarf players have been playing?

Anyways, I still stand by my suggestions. What I can add is that the Chaos Dwarf Hero should be a carbon copy of the Dwarf Thane, which means he gets T5 instead of his lowered LD, which is nice.

The recent rulings for the upcoming USGT should of course be standard practice for the RH list, even the one that nerfs the Black Orcs. However, while I think it's good to get something in return for the lost Lapping Round rule for the Sneaky Gits, I was personally thinking of an altogether different direction for the Sneaky Gits. Namely, a skirmishing unit. With two poisoned hand weapons and poisoned throwing knives. It's something to think about, at least.

While yes we need an army book, we also need RH rules to be clarified ala FAQ. Sort of like the US GT just released.  Though even that misses a few issues.

---There are a number of things that do not sit well with me about the RH list. First and foremost the Orcs and Goblins. Referencing another army list is a spectacularly bad idea. Those entries need to be cut or replaced with Slave Orcs and Slave Goblins instead of referencing rules that are subject to change without notice. There is an anlogous problem wit hthe Hellcannon. That thing needs a significant overhaul to fit into the CD list.

---Black Orcs need to be cut, for the reasons mentioned above as well as a couple of others. Black Orcs in the 5th ed list were mercenaries: a really bad idea fluffwise for CDs who hate them for leading that very costly revolution.

---Sneaky Gitz reference a rule that does not exist any more. They need to be Skirmishers, it's that simple. Well, no quite that simple; they should have an initiative of at least 3.

---Chaos Dwarf sorcerers are too cheap at 65pts each, having better Leadership and Toughness then other wizards is a huge advantage in their line of work.

---Blunderbusses need simplification. Elegance is beautiful. The fact that it does not follow normal rules is a huge red flag. Most broken things are ones that do not follow the rules (LOS for Thorek Ironbrow and former Forked Lightning, the previous Steam Tank, former Hellblasters, ratling guns, Salamanders, and some have argued that even cannons fit into this category).

---Bull Centaurs are glass cannons: give them great weapons and they chew through Ironbreakers, but with T4 and a 5+ save they die like flies to handguns. What they need is a "trample" (what I called "bull kick") rule to stop them from getting that second attack with bonus Strength, and they also need to be more durable (eith T5 or Scaly Skin, maybe 5+). I am also a firm believer that BCs should slow down, because really their heavy armor should weigh as much as barding. In addition, bulls are not as fast as horses.

---There is a lot of other stuff I would like to see in the list, but for that see my thread on the list from the old GW forums.

I love the Ld10 hero, just because it screws with my opponents head so much. They get arguing about while i sit back and laugh.... Funny little gits...

i think chaos dwars should keep the earth shacker and get the hell cannon"we made it dident we"

I think a more elegant solution to the blunderbuss would be just the ability to fire in multiple ranks.  If they were lets say s3 armour piercing, with no rank bonus to strength and normal shooting rules.  perhaps being able to ignore the -1 after you move but thats it.  I don't know, most of the auto hitting stuff like the organ gun and volley gun have been toned WAY down in 7th ed.

Sneaky gits make sense as skirmishers, but also as raiders and scouts.  I personally like the idea of them being skirmishers but the enemy can't reform if theyre beaten in combat.

BTW: Centagors are the least used beastmen unit for a reason.  If BC counted like them theyd have 1 s5 chop 1 s4 trample with weapons or only 2 s4 with 2 ccws.  I like the idea of them being infantry but moving faster.  Although, if that *were* the case, they should probably cost significantly more as they have a number of advantages then.  Also, don't forget people, the reason most heavy calv get -1 move is because they have barding.  If BC's got full plate equivilent I would agree.  In fact, i'll just say they should.  As then they have t4 with a 3+ save vs shooting, which puts them quite a bit closer to what other armies have.  Although it might make more sense to justify it as a "6+ scaly skin save" or whatever the orcs boar bonus is called, rather than the fact that they have better armour.

BBs don't autohit exactly... they hit on 4+ things under the fire zone.  Like I have told many people there are many ways to kill BBs.  Any single model, multiple wound target will pwn BBs. Chariots, Giants, Ogres, etc. Max one hit, max one wound.