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Dwarfs would be far more accurate. No spellcasters,flyers or Bull Centaur characters but everything else is doable. Some bloke from GW Canada did something similar. Hobgoblins would be done by either taking Kislev allies (lots of fast cav) or by hiring DOW. Ironbreakers would be spot on for Immortals.
DWARFS

LORD:
Chaos Dwarf Lord (Dwarf Lord)
- Shield Bearers could make an awesome conversion in themselves.  Very useful in gaming terms.
- Oathstone.  Could make for dynamic character conversions.

Sorcerer Lord (Runelord)
The sorcerer is nowhere near as useful in the Dwarf list (compared to chaos), but in a Dwarf 'counts as' list he would be very useful.

- Anvil.  You can't really represent the Lammasu in gaming terms in a Dwarf themed list (without using DoW), But as shown by our showcase army, a stationary CD themed anvil can be a centrepiece of the army.  You could paint paint a Lammasu as stone, make a statue, or some sort of stationary mechanical monstrosity.

BC Lord (n/a)
There isn't a suitable equivalent in this list.  The only possibility would be a BC rearing up on his hind legs on a 20mm x 20mm base, counted as a Daemon Slayer... Unsure  Not a great choice really.

EDIT:  Could use a Daemon Slayer as a Berserker lord

HERO:
Chaos Dwarf Hero (Dwarf Thane)
Same as usual.

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer (Runesmith)
As with the Runelord, not a great equivalent, but still usefull.

Hobgoblin Hero (n/a)
There isn't a suitable choice for him IMO.

BC Hero(n/a)
Unless you want to go down the Dragon slayer route, nothing useful here.

EDIT:  Could use a Dragon Slayer as a Berserker Hero

Arcane Engineer [Master Engineer] - A chance for a cool addition here

CORE
Chaos Dwarf Warriors (Dwarf Warriors)
Note that you could even do Chaos Dwarf Ancients/ Longbeards

Blunderbussers (Thunderers)
Several choices here because of a Quarrellers or Rangers equivalent.

Hobgoblins
Nothing appropriate here really, you could use rangers as a Sneaky Git scouting unit perhaps?  Maybe Quarellers as 'sniper Hobgoblins'? No Wolf rider equivalent.

SPECIAL:
Immortals/ Black Orcs (Hammerers OR Ironbreakers)
A great reason to use the Dwarf list here.  Ironbreakers and Hammerers have the rules to make 2 exceptionally fluffy Chaos Dwarf units.

Orcs (Slayers)
Not a great comparison really, but as a 'counts as' unit I guess it could work.  Chaos Dwarf Berserkers would fit in perfectly.

Goblins (n/a)
Who uses goblins anyway. Wink

Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower (Dwarf Bolt Thrower)

Sneaky Gits (n/a)
Nothing immediately obvious here, but could use Rangers?

Death Rocket (Grudge Thrower, Cannon or Organ Gun)
Great chance here to adapt the design of the rockets so you can use all choices in different roles.

Combat Engineers [Miners] - A cool addition to a Chaos Dwarf Force

RARE
Bull Centaurs (Slayers?)
Only option here I can think of (aside from DOW) are Slayers (using them as infantry modelled on their hind legs). Seriouly underused when not being used as cavalry and very hard to model well.

Earthshaker (Cannon, Grudge Thrower or Flame Cannon)
Three artillery choices here!

Lammasu - Gyrocopter?

SUMMARY:
On the plus side you have access to plenty of elite infanty to create themed units from.  The Dwarf list must be the best 'counts as' army for this.  Added to this, more artillery than you could ever need for CD equivalents!!!  The core choices are a lot more exciting too.  You also have appropriate profiles and movement for a Chaos Dwarf army.

On the negative side the Lammasu, Great Taurus, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Wolf Riders, Sneaky Gits and Bull Centaurs are all effectively out of the list.

So you lose out on some areas, but more than make up for them in others (IMO).  How well the Dwarfs would stand as a 'counts as' army would really depend on how passionate you were about the bits you would no longer be able to use.

I think someone should really do an Empire 'counts as' list here.  I don't have access to the new book, Angry but that could make an amazing army.  Mechanical Dragon/ uber Great Taurus anyone? Happy

Rumi

for the gyrocopter why not created a steampunk mechanical CD themed gyrocopter! man that would be so coool! In fact I may try that ! Happy I agree that a dwarf count as CD seems the most accurate, it still has holes but what count as list dosen't?

Tallhat

I love hammerhands version  based on the HoC. Much better than ordinary dwarfs.

- Tallhat
DOW could fill in lots of spots in the Dwarf list. Heavy Cav become Bull Centaurs, Duellists become Sneaky Gitz and Fast Cav become Wolfboyz.
And the Heavy Cav would be a good deal more effective than the current Bull Centaurs.
They are indeed Rare Choices but the only Rare Choice in the Dwarf list that could fit into ours is the Copter.
The biggest problem in finding counts-as lists is the core troop with Toughness 4, I think.  I don't have too much of a problem with modelling Chaos Dwarfs on larger bases to count-as Chaos Warriors, but T3 Empire state troops don't say "dwarf" to me, although the war machines might.  I was thinking about orcs as a counts-as list, modelling orcs as CDs (again on larger bases) but then they lose the famous dwarf discipline, so I dunno about that option.

What about a counts-as LIZARDMEN list?  Hmm actually that idea seems pretty good.....

Slann as Sorcerer Lord on Palanquin
Saurus Lord as Chaos Dwarf Lord
Carnosaur as Bull Centaur Lord/Great Taurus
Skink sorcerers as Hobgoblin shamans/apprentice sorcerers

Saurus as Chaos Dwarf warriors (lose the WS, but get the second attack instead and keep the discipline with Cold-Blooded)
Skinks as Hobbos
Cold Ones as Bull Centaurs
Salamanders as mobile flame-thrower machines!
Stegadon as Kolossus
Pteradons (is that their name?) as gyrocoptery machines
Kroxigor as golems/robots/ogres/steampunk ogre cyborgs!
Junge Swarms as......ash waste swarms?  Lava beetles?  hmmm...

How about that then?  I guess there would be no more blunderbuss, and no more deathrocket/earthshaker.....

Cotter Wrote:
Morning,

the biggest problem I see with the "Chaos" counts-as-list is the base size. All chaos models are based on the bigger 25mm bases, whereas (chaos) dwarves are on the smaller 20mm bases. Chosen warriors with Great Weapon and the small frontage of a dwarf unit would definetly rock, though...

I guess counts-as-dwarfs is the best solution.


I agree. The main idea behind this is that CDs can be used in tournaments, and most tournaments insist on correct base size. Here is my own take on the Dwarf list, slightly diferent to Grim's:
Lords
Dwarf Lord - Chaos Dwarf Lord
Runelord - Sorcerer Lord
Anvil of Doom - Stoned sorcerer lord
Daemon Slayer - Possesed Berzerker
Heroes
Thane - CD Hero
Runesmith - Shadow or Death sorcerer
Engineer - Metal or Fire Sorcerer
Dragon Slayer - Berzerker "hero"
Core
Dwarf Warriors - CD Warriors
Thunderers - Blunderbussiers
Quarrelers - CD Crossbows (3rd ed style)
Miners - Combat Engineers/Furnace Guard
Special
Hammerers - General's Bodyguard
Ironbreakers - Immortals
Slayers - Berzerkers
Bolt Throwers - Bolt Throwers
Stone Thrower - Earthshaker
Cannon - Death Rocket
Rare
Gyrocopter - Great Taurus (With beastmaster rider rather than lord to explain the crappy stats)
Organ Gun - Gatling Gun
Flame Cannon - Hellcannon

In addition to this DoW heavy Cavalry could be used for bull centaurs

True HH, fair point. Oh, and I forgot to mention in any CA army you could use the dark emissary/truthsayer as a sorcerer
Does anyone actually do the "counts as" thing, or is this a purely theoretical discussion?

Hammerhand Wrote:
Wow, abreviation-tastic


qft, HH.  lol

EMPIRE

LORD
Elector Count  = Chaos Dwarf Lord.  The fact that he can ride a Griffon (Great Taurus) is a bonus, but he can ride a Warhorse or Pegasus as well!  So some interesting fluff ideas there.
Templar Grand Master = Bull Centaur Lord?  He has to be mounted, so this would be a good choice as a ‘counts as’ model.
Arch Lector  Some real fun here…  I would use him as a ‘High Priest of Hashut’, not a sorcerer.  That he can ride a War Altar is an amazingly awesome conversion idea!!!
Wizard Lord = Sorcerer Lord.  Note that he too can ride a Pegasus (Lammasu)!

HERO
Captain = CD Hero
Warrior Priest = Priest of Hashut.  Very useful in gaming terms and interesting fluff wise.
Master Engineer = Arcane Engineer.  Lots of options here, a Mechanical Mount being one.
Battle Wizard = Sorcerer

CORE
Halberdiers = Chaos Dwarf Warriors
Spearmen = Chaos Dwarf Warriors
Swordsmen = Chaos Dwarf Warriors
Handgunners = Blunderbussers
Free Companies = Hobgoblins
Archers-Huntsmen Archers = Hobgoblins, Hunters = Sneaky Gits.
Crossbowmen = Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarfs.
Knightly Orders = Bull Centaurs

SPECIAL
Inner Circle Knights = Badass Bull Centaurs!
Greatswords = Immortals/ elite infantry
Pistoliers-Outriders = Could be Chaos Dwarfs on mechanical mounts, or Wolf Riders
Great Cannon = Earthshaker?  Powerful bolt thrower?  Maybe even a single Death Rocket?
Mortar = Earthshaker

RARE
Flagellants = Berserkers?  Mad slaves?  Not sure what else would be good here.
Helblaster = Chance for a wacky warmachine here.
Helstorm Rocket Battery = Awesome Death Rocket
Steam Tank …. Oh you know that would be good… Wink  A Kollossus maybe

SUMMARY
On the plus side you’ve got all infantry on 20mm, an amazing choice of heroes, loads of magic choices, more variety in core units than you could ever want and pretty much everything in our list covered!  Did I mention the War Altar awesomeness and the Steam Tank!?!? Shock

You can also do highly themed customised lists because of the flexibility in the list (fanatical armies of berserkers for instance).

On the downside they all move too fast for Chaos Dwarfs on foot.  A major problem for a ‘counts as’ army.  The hobgoblins would also be uncharacteristically effective at what they would do (accurate shooting etc).  You would also have to have LOTS of models, because the core troops are so cheap.

wallacer Wrote:
Does anyone actually do the "counts as" thing, or is this a purely theoretical discussion?


A few people have armies they can use as CDs or use the "in case of snotty opponent" dwarf rules as well

The empire seems most interesting, but don't forget hobbos have the same basic stats as men

AGPO Wrote:
"in case of snotty opponent"


Big Grin
In that case I would probably just use the regular Dwarf rules.

My pont exactly. As long as your CA army is legal, then you can have a game without wasting time arguing fruitlessly about the legality of the CD list
at the moment i use dwarf rules for my cd's although i have grown apart from my chaos dwarfs.
i prefer my kislevite army WOOOO!
That never happened with me. Simply badger away at them until they give in.

minty Wrote:
Lords
Mercenary general - chaos dwarf lord (low T I kniw, but it's the best I've got) Can ride a pegasus also if you wish
Wizard lord - sorcerer lord with pegasus as a lammassu

Heros
mercenary captain - chaos dwarf hero (he's T4, so I guess it works)Can ride a pegasus also if you wish
hireling wizard - hobgoblin wizard (T3, so can't work as a chaos dwarf)
paymaster - hobgoblin hero Can be a Chaos Dwarf Demonologist or something because of the BSB effect

Heroes riding Warhorses could be carried by Hobgoblins or a floating palanquin

Core
Pikemen - hobgoblin warriors I don't think pikes suit at all
Crossbowmen - hobgoblin shooters I think Crossbowmen are too regimented for Hobgoblins
duelists - sneaky gits with either additional hand weapon or pistol
Light cav- hobgoblin wolf riders
Heavy cavalry - Bull centaurs With or without barding

Special
Dwarfs - chaos dwarfs
Ogres - golems/ogre slaves
LeadBelchers could be some kind of war machine
Halflings - small hobgoblins/ snotlings deamon potato sacks
norse bezerkers - crazed slaves/drugged hobgoblins

Rare
Cannon - hobgoblin/slave crewed warmachine
Hotpot - potato launcher crewed by potato sacks
Bronzinos Galloper Gun could be a Hobgoblin war machine pulled by wolves, or a Bull Centaur carried weapon
The Goblin Hewer could be an interesting weapon of choice

Regiments of renown
if you think I have the attention span to do these guys you should lay of the gin and tonic, just come up with your own


My comments / observations in Red.

In general, I find the DoW list the closest to the Chaos Dwarf List...

I think an Ogre Kingdoms list can work - but mainly because I see Bull Centaurs as a Ogre Class choice - and have mounted them on the appropriate bases...

OGRE KINGDOMS

TYRANT Bull Centaur Lord, or Chaos Dwarf Lord on Bull Taurus

BUTCHER LORD Chaos Dwarf Sorceror on Machine / palanquin / Lammasu

BRUISER Bull Centaur Hero / Chaos Dwarf Hero on Taurus

BUTCHER Chaos Dwarf Sorceror on Machine / palanquin / Lammasu

OGRE BULLS Bull Cenaturs w Hand Weapon + Shield

IRON GUTS Bull Centaurs w Great Weapons

GNOBBLARS Hobgoblins

LEADBELCHERS War Machines / Blunderbusses on Machines

RHINOX SCRAPLAUNCHER Demonic War Machines

GNOBLAR TRAPPERS Hobgoblin Sneaky Gitz

MANEATERS Really nasty Bull Centaurs

DOGS OF WAR Here is where you would get your actual Chaos Dwarf units.

HUNTERS, GORGERS & YHETEES Don't exactly fit in this list IMO, but the Rare choices are better used for Dwarves.
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