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The big one...

Having discussed CD with many non CD players over that last few days, I began to wonder whether we NEED hobgoblins/ slaves/ mercenaries as part of our list as UNITS at all?

Before you send me off to the Temple of Zharr for sacrifice, hear me out.

Fluff wise we could keep them as part of our society, as a lesser race of slavers.  They could be scouts, and a few tribes on the payroll to beat down the others.

Do they have to be in our list though?  Would we need them if our list was geared to be more elite?  You wouldn't need the cannon fodder as you'd just have more cannons!

We could keep them there in some form (a slave beast, or slave models on a base/ machine etc), but basically what I'm talking about is removing them as complete units in core.

From another perspective look at the Dark Elves. They are also a great nation of slavers, but when they go to battle it's serious stuff!  No space for slaves or mercenaries, even though they could have both fluff wise.

Does their list suffer because of it?  No.

It would mean a very radical rethink of our list, but would that be a bad thing?

Though I agree that CD need to be updated, and geared to be more elite as you put it, I still think we should keep the hobgobbos in our list. They are cheap, versatile, and fluff wise, I can see CD using them to perform the more menial tasks in battle (fodder). Just like we actually use them today.
One of the things that attracted me to the list in the first place was the change from just an all dwarf list to using slaves/hobgobbos and orcs to do their bidding.
I also like that we don't need more than a few types of cannons to be successful in battle. All we need is the good old ES and we are good.
But I guess I am just conservative in my views of the CD list.
I personally like the hobgobbos as they are. But that is just me.

Off topic, but is it just my imagination or am I always the one who tends to start these controversial threads?

I must be really radical

Haha, I did notice that you have another thread similar to this one about halfway down the page.

I think that if new models ever came out for Hobgoblins, they would really try to play up the sinister, backstabbing ways, which could make for more separation from other greenskins, and some really sweet models and perhaps new rules.

Units like the sneaky gits and the wolf riders are useful because they perform tasks that CD cannot. As for the core units, they are obsolete if the CD really get their upgrade with more artillery and elite units. The old army list actually lack CD and give hobos a reason to be there. A CD army should rely on artillery, sorcery and dwarf warriors, not in greenskins.
They must stay in the background and must be rethinked, but no more as core choice.

To the Temple, you sneeky git! They should stay core, but should change quite a bit.
1) They need a points boost to 5 points (please, hold the whip until I am finished).
2) They have a better stat line than goblins and make some of the best fast cav in the game (only fast cav with 4+ save). Possibly get spears, only if mounted.
3) They should loose animosity ( they live a "life of oppulance" apposed to other slaves)
4) They need to effect other non-hobo greenskins in a different way. Whenever any other greenskin unit rolls a 1 on animosity, they should have to go 2d6 near the closest visibly hobo unit and attack if they hit it. If none is visibly, squabble as normal (They hate them with a passion).

Thats what I think.

There is a very hot bath waiting for you at the temple, Grim.

IMO it would be a shame to drop the Hobgoblins. They make our army list special, without them we would be reduced to "evil dwarfs" which is not the same thing.

It might be nice to have HGs as a sort of elf version of the greenskin (other greenskins already hate them so this can be another reason) - elite skills, but fragile.  Maybe WS4 and I5, but still lows stats everywhere else.

23% apprx for dropping is more than I thought I would get

Looks like I will have my work cut out to think of appropriate core alternatives for a CD pure list.

@Theory_Man
You say that with worrying glee!

I rolled up Hobgoblins into their own army list to represent the horde of Hobgobala Khan and divisions of it that might work for anyone.
http://www.zakyotoshi.com/HobgoblinArmyList.htm

I ended up giving them about as many options as most army lists have and then certain units from the list would be designated as units that the Chaos Dwarfs would typically enslave (so they could take them from the list the same as they take units from the Orcs & Goblins list and assumably the Ogre Kingdoms list too).
By switching two distinctly different races to two distinctly different lists and then allowing the Chaos Dwarfs to spend points on certain options from other army lists it allows each list to focus more on the special abilities of that particular army. Although both Hobgoblins and Chaos Dwarfs are cool, Hobgoblins are about medium sized hordes of expendible units, fast-moving calvary, poison, medium-range arrow pelting and dirty tricks while Chaos Dwarfs are about slow moving but heavily armored and dangerous warriors covered by short-ranged blasting blunderbusses and backed by powerful magic and war machines. When combined neither one really does what it is supposed to, Hobgoblins get turned into less-specialized and ultimately subpar Goblins and Chaos Dwarfs can't really show off their war machines as well.

Granted, if you are attempting to make an army that is a 'jack-of-all-trades' then I suppose having an army list where you have something that fills every possible niche is certainly helpful to you.

I love Hobgoblins! Just not as part of the Chaos Dwarf army, I 've always fielded a pure Chaos Dwarf force.

So my vote goes to something else, an armylist of their own represending the Golden Horde-Mournguls as stated by Hobgoblyn above.

but hobgobins are awesome

burn grim burn, your sacrifice has the highest number of votes. I'll make the apointment for you

dark elves work fine without slaves, but they are almost high elves but with a different shceme, as would dawi zharr and dawi f we changed them

I think hobgoblins need a few changes, but should definitly stay in the list, other slaves should go though.
1) Add +2 points
2) Have light armour basic
3) get +1I
4) have the option of spears
5) Wolfriders are a sperate unit with minimum 5+

Well, it is great that you can rationalize it in fluff like that, Gelli, but there are a number of armies in both WarHammer and WarHammer 40K that are effectively functioning with a similar limited population and yet when you play an army that is meant to be representative of that race then you play an army composed primarily of that race. Right?

Which isn't to say that the Chaos Dwarfs shouldn't get a wide access to a number of various slaves, just like the Chaos list has access to a very large number of options as well, but... you know the Dwarf list doesn't have humans running around in order to provide cover for them.

I don't consider myself to be playing CDs as a race, Hobgoblyn, but as an Empire. I am playing the army of the Chaos Dwarf state, and it has fully incorporated hobgoblins into the war machine. In my opinion there should be more hobgoblins with more options, preferably being culturally distinct from the Hobgobla Khanate to reflect the thousands of years spent in CD society. There's no reason that each race should only be represented in one list/culture, so the hobgoblins in the Empire of Zharr needn't refer to the Khanate.

I would like hobgoblins to have their own list, it would be a shame to see them go completely, but it wouldn't be a shame to see them go from our army IMO.

Screw the whole dieing race thing, why don't we just slave because we are evil!! make them do the tasks to lowly for us, force them to mine, to carry war gear from place to place and have them as servants and such for our sorcerers. Let them do the crappy jobs we Dwarfs are to good for.
Dwarfs love to fight, so why let greenskins have all the fun!
I would really like to see an army of all armoured Chaos Dwarfs surrounded by their warmachines ready to hack enemies to bits or blow everything up trying!

Re-think the history, the only reason we need cannon fodder like that is because we are a dieing race, I think that should go!

There's me thinking we were Chaos Dwarfs...?

Interesting reading replies here that some people think the other greenskin units will stay.  They won't.

Incase its not clear, I'm not talking about removing them from the Ravening Hordes list, but from 7th ed Chaos Dwarfs.  Taking them out from RH when we have so few units already would be silly.

It is posible that GW will add only few special and rare units (like kollosus and Imortals). Or even not add any of them, because books about Warhammer aren't written rulewise (like the riders of the death with some kind of mix of pistoliers and knights). I think that core option should be:
1. CD Warriors
2. Blunderbusses
3. Wolf Riders
4. Hobgoblins
??5. Maybe slaves(but they'll include both gnoblars;goblins;humans etc)