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They do still use runes, at least in the non-magical sense. A lot of people may start to say that we use runes to bind daemons to thing. I'd say at the very least we may use it to bind magic to weapons etc.

dedwrekka Wrote:
Because of when chaos spilled across the old world. The Dwarfs didn't learn runecraft until they were taught it by Grungni, by that time the dwarfs of the great skull land, chaos dwarfs, were already corrupted. So the Chaos Dwarfs would have never learned to craft runes the way dwarfs did.

This sounds logical to me.

ye gods no!
Grungi, Grimnir, and Valaya all abandoned us to the Chaos Incursion... or so sayeth Hashut...

time to dust off the WRPG "daemon prince" fluff...

Quote:
"One of the Daemon Princes, Hashut, revolted against the Lords of Chaos. Khorne swatted Hashut away and sent other Daemon Princes with their retinues to slay the defiant daemon...The Chaos Incursion ignored the Dark Lands until Hashut�s revolt against the Lords of Chaos. Fleeing from the Daemon Princes sent by the Blood God to destroy him, Hashut made his stand in the Dark Lands. The savage battles they fought boiled away the rivers and left the land a desiccated ruin. The servants of the Daemon Princes destroyed Goblin and Hobgoblin villages to deny Hashut any possible allies.

These new (though unwitting) allies gave Hashut the opportunity to turn against his pursuers. He killed many, but Khorne always sent more. Knowing they would eventually overwhelm him, Hashut withdrew into the underground darkness to rebuild his strength. Khorne�s slaves followed and finally cornered their quarry in a large underground cavern. Suffering from their own wounds, the followers of the Blood God imprisoned Hashut behind a great door of brass and darkened iron to hold him till Khorne saw fit to exact his vengeance in person..."

"...Unlike their western brethren, the Dwarf clans of the Mountains of Mourn didn�t receive Grungni�s warning before the Warpgates collapsed and Warpdust seeped into their settlements. Yet, the eastern Dwarfs realised that something was amiss and closed their doors. A surge of Warp matter obliterated the Dwarfs� surface entrances and entrapped them below. For hundreds of years, the Dark Lands Dwarfs were trapped underground. No matter where they tunnelled, impenetrable rock prevented them from reaching the surface. The Dwarfs burrowed ever-deeper, always seeking a way past the rock that trapped them.

They eventually tunnelled into a magnificent underground gallery with walls of obsidian. Carefully exploring the cavern, the Dwarfs found a huge sealed door made of brass and darkened iron with arcane writings inscribed on it. Rune Lord Grimdalf the Grey took it upon himself to translate the glyph learn what was beyond the door. After many years, Grimdalf successfully read the script and, as he mouthed the last syllable, the resulting blast tore him apart. The sound of it reverberated throughout the tunnels, as did the roar of whatever it was Grimdalf had set free.

The thing from behind the door was free and Dwarfs were dying. Even when they finally tunnelled out of the earth, the killings continued during the night. In time, fewer died and some Dwarfs were even allowed to return to their fellows with tales of a gigantic creature from the Darkness. With their Dwarfking dead (one of the beast�s first victims), the remaining clan leaders selected a delegation to approach the creature in its lair to learn its intent. It told them that its name was Hashut, Father of Darkness, and that he would grant them great power if they worshipped him alone. Hashut told the Dark Lands Dwarfs that their Ancestor Gods abandoned them to the onslaught of Chaos. Should they refuse, promised Hashut, their lines would come to an end and their achievements would be forgotten.

A heated argument broke out between those who saw wisdom in Hashut�s words and those who saw forsaking the Ancestor Gods as the first step to damnation. At the height of the debate, weapons were drawn and Dwarf slew Dwarf. Seeing the fight from afar, Hashut granted sorcerous power to those elders who favoured him, tipping the battle in their favour. To honour their new god, the victors sacrificed many of their brethren to Hashut, while they gave others to him as slaves. Some of these he mutated into the beasts that serve him: the Great Taurus and Lammasu. Hashut also took the most ferocious fighters for his cause and shaped them into the Bull Centaurs, his distinguished servants. Lastly, the victorious clan elders were permanently rewarded with powerful sorcerous abilities, which they used to Hashut�s glory.

In a final desperate act against their now debased rulers, the remaining Runesmiths revolted against Hashut�s new order. But, the corruption of the Dark Lands Dwarfs had even affected the power of the Runesmiths. The battle raged for months, but the Sorcerer-Priests were too strong. The Runesmiths were broken and enslaved, while the more powerful among them were sacrificed to Hashut after several days of ritual torture. With the last vestiges of their former culture removed, the corruption of the Dark Lands Dwarfs was completed. Hashut rewarded them with tusks to mark them as his own, while he granted the most devout cloven hoofs and horns.

except in my quote above...
the ancestors turned their backs on the chaos dwarfs... and so they lost the power of runes...
what odds...
we've thrown off the shackles of dwarfish dogma...
it part of our evolution...
So what book is that daemon prince fluff from?  Was it published, or not? And if not, how did we get a hold of this?  I am still trying to locate this fluff for my own collection.
indeed...

the daemon prince fluff was edited from the WHRP... but before the tome of corruption...
in any event I do not think it was published (for whatever reason) and I don't know of any hard copy form...
So where did we get it then?  How do we know it was cut?  I am so shaky when it comes to the original source, how do we know it is not fan-made, for example?
Forgive me for all my questions. How did this get online?  Was it leaked, or what?

cornixt Wrote:
Just read the guy's website.  It was written by a guy (not a GW employee) who worked for a publisher, with the aim of proving they could do a good job for the WFRP Chaos sourcebook.  They didn't get the job.  he did do the Dwarf book though.

Ahh, so it was basically proposed Fluff.

http://www.madalfred.darcore.net/Articles.html
"History of Chaos
This article was co-written with Anthony Ragan and accompanied our proposal to write the WFRP RoC for Hogshead. This article appeared in Tim Eccles' Origin of Tree Worship #5, which can be order from the by clicking this link to Shadow Warriors and then clicking on Warhammer. This article has also been translated, I believe, for Le Grimoire."

Side note: Origin of Tree Worship is a fan magazine.

Which Dwarf book did he do?

Thanks for clearing this up. Happy

Knowing the true original of the Hashut fluff, I don't see how it could be taken seriously.  It was essentially a portfolio piece to try and get a job.  This was not produced or funded by GW at all. :/
If that fluff were canon, it actually agrees with the dwarf book when you read them. The fluff says there were runesmiths (which the dwarf book doesn't say disappeared). The dwarf book says that no hero like the original three arose when the chaos dwarfs became corrupted and the fluff says the chaos dwarfs were abandoned by the ancestor gods (another concurrence there. They both say that the heroes had become Gods and not helped). Then, it says the runesmiths (the ones with the knowledge of how to use magical runes) were KILLED.

However, if it was only a proposed piece of fluff by a freelance writer (correct me politely if I;m worng), then it isn't offical. Either way, the chaos dwarfs seem to prefer daemonbinding if you follow the hellcannon or just using magic and they seem to prefer science anyway. It's more a case of runes have become obselete, except perhaps for (magical) weapons and armour etc, but as to why we don't use runes in the rules system, it's because we don't use the variation included in the dwarfs runic magic for such things.

That's my take, anyway.
Okay, so, as I thought, my knowledge of the creator etc was false (cheers Metro) and my assumption as to the lack of runes was correct (again, cheers Metro).

torn: That's partly what I meant as well, when I mentioned the hellcannon.

dedwrekka Wrote:
The Chaos Dwarfs never had Runesmiths according to the Dwarf Fluff. Runes were only taught to dwarfs bu Grungni as a means of defense against chaos after chaos had swept the land and only after the Dwarfs had come out of their mountain holds. This places it at a time only after the coming of chaos and after the Dwarfs of the Great Skull Land had become Chaos Dwarfs (During the time the other dwarfs were hiding in their holds).


Actually, it says that the Ancestor gods were still in physical form (and I believe had taught them runic magic) when the Chaos dwarfs bcame Chaos dwarfs.

dedwrekka Wrote:
In "The Orphans" bit about the chaos dwarfs it says that they didn't have leaders like Grungni, Valaya, or Grimnir that appeared. I fail to see how they could have had runesmiths if the dwarfs were only taught to use runes by Grungni after the coming of chaos, and how the Chaos Dwarfs could have known runes if they didn't know Grungni.


Actually, it says that these three Ancestor gods (it states ancestor gods, I believe) didn't arise, nor did any hero like them, to lead the dwarfs away from Chaos. This, therefore, means that the gods did exist by this point, as gods, but they just didn;t stop the Chaos dwarfs going off to the Darklands.

dedwrekka Wrote:
It also contradicts the unprinted version of events by placing Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir as physical beings, and not as the ancestor gods yet, at the time of the comming of chaos. Only later were they known as the Ancestor Gods, much after the disappearance of Grimnir in the Chaos Wastes. Further it goes on to say that the Chaos Dwarfs never knew of Grimnir, Valaya, and Grungni, because they had only risen to lead the dwarfs after the mountain dwarfs had left the holds after the coming of chaos.


Correction, they never knew them as anything but dwarfs. Therefore, they didn;t know they were gods. This is why they say that they believe the dwarfs abandoned them as opposed to their gods abandoning them.

dedwrekka Wrote:
Where the unprinted version of events places them as having been the Ancestor Gods and well known to the Chaos Dwarfs well before that time. It also places Runes and runesmiths as having been around for a long time by that point, another thing at odds with the latest fluff.


The unprinted version says that they were heroes at the time of the Chaos dwarfs leaving. It doesn't say the runesmiths had been around for a long time, by that point, but even if they had, the ancestor gods lived for the same amount of time as an average elf (minimum, as I believe one or two lived longer. One to 6,000 if memory serves) and so it'd still be plausible.

Quote:
From "The Orphans" in WA: Dwarfs


Quote:
"...no Grimnir, Grungni, or Valaya arose to lead them, or at least no heroes have been recorded."

They were Heroes at the time. Grimnir later had a son who he handed off his axe to before stalking off into the wastes, as detailed in "The Doom of Grimnir" one page after "The Orphans".


They couldn't have been heroes as they didn't arise to lead them. They lead the dwarfs whilst they were heores.

But, anyway, we digress. I had just posted something, but my internet failed as I clicked send and I cannot rememeber what a lot fo it said, excepting that I mentioned there was little need for the "after (repeat: after)" as we are all mature on here and also that I mentioned that anything I say on any thread is liable to a clause of, I accept I may be wrong and if so would like to be corrected politely.

The only other points I recall was an agreement that the author perhaps did push too far on the Balrogesque theme occurring and also that either way, the runesmiths, had there been any, were all killed anyway and thusly, that is why Chaos dwarfs do not use runes. I beleive another point I'd made (which I've just recalled) was that one is official and one is not, therefore, the one that is official is correct and there should be no disagreement there. Problem solved.

Verdict: Chaos dwarfs don't use runic magic becase the runesmiths (who didn't exist anyway and thusly never went, according to official fluff) were all killed as sacrifices to Hashut (according to unofficial fluff), causing there to be no method of creating runic magics akin to the Western Dwarfs. Perhaps we then developed daemon-binidng runes, but that's not been defined in fluff yet, we've just been told daemon-binding occurs.

I am more inclined to discount this "fluff" altogether, knowing the origins of it.

I have always found it troubling that so many people latched on to it without properly checking the source first.
Don';t worry about it. I also apologise for the unintended implications put forth. That is something I'm very aware I may accidentally do, which I don't wish to. If I do not reply to a point, it's usually because the point is correct.

However, I thought, as Metro pointed out, that the runelore was created before, but assumed I had misplaced my thoughts during posting. A lot of the unprinted version would be incorrect, partly because GW has updated fluff, but not the unprinted (for obvious reasons Big Grin )and so that could be a cause of it.

I thought the three heroes existed before, but lead the armies of dwarfs in the incursion? As I said, I was lead to believe they lived for thousands of years as opposed to the normal hundreds, by dwarfs, thusly allowing them to exist some time before during and possibly after the incursion.
I had some vague recollection that Grungni was the one taught by the Old Ones and then passed it on. Similar to Odinn from (originally) Norse beliefs.
torn: perhaps not for weapons or armour, but for things like lamps, so that the oil level never decreased etc.

dedwrekka: That sounda akin to either something I said or something I meant to say in my screwed up post.
I'd say as many runes as other races and probably as a written form of language. Nothing evil, per se, but plenty of stuff you'd need to fend off!
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