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Looking at updated maps of the CD holdings and territory, it seems we've somehow let the southern empire go to pieces. Can someone fill me in on how this happened?
Are you the same Voice from ages past (HoH/ GA)?  Good to see you back!

It's a fluff war out there, with all the armybooks being updated before ours they are reshaping our empire.  Of course we never had an 'official' border anyway as we never had a real armybook.

They are making an effort to include us with snippets of fluff in most of the new books, mostly in passing or with us taking a kicking. Sad

For the loss of the southern empire I blame the ogres, lizardmen and vampire counts.
There's no evidence any of the southern Dark Lands was ever Chaos Dwarf territory. Gorgoth is a Chaos Dwarf stronghold, as is the Black Fortress (according to a White Dwarf article when the Ogre Kingdoms were just released), but it's been fairly consistently stated that the only actual land they hold for definite is the Plain of Zharr.
Thommy H, I think it would be true to say that Zharr is the only wide area controlled by the CDs, but due to limited population that has never been an option of the Dawi Zharr empire, which operates along a strictly colonial principle with great fortresses at strategically placed locations. Each of the three major roads of the darklands had at least one major Fortress on it:
Road of Skulls: Uzkulak, Fortress of Despair.
Path to the East: Zharr Naggrund, Gorgathor, Kazadrin.
Silver Road: Gorgoth.
Spice Road: Fortress of Vorag, Urogash.
CDs also established strong fortresses for their northern and southern fleets: Uzkulak in the North, Urogash in the south. Then the principle artery of the CD Empire, the River Ruin, ran from Zharr Naggrund to Urogash via Gorgathor, Daemon's Stump, Black Fortress and Flayed Rock. The eastern shore is lined with smaller fortresses and a tributary leads to Ashtown. Smaller watchtowers and fortresses are scattered across the eastern Darklands, especially the Ashurbar group, and around the major colonies like Uzkulak and Karak Adora (which is on all the maps, but somewhat inexplicable as I've not got my research to hand). To the south, the island colonies of Nobarak, Tashbaan and Kattashan have been established.

There are maps with all of these locations on (and properly symbolled as CD settlements).

And yup, its me again. Rejoined the hobby, now to rebuild my beloved south.
See my plans for a Dragon Islands army elsewhere in the forum. We already have colonies on the islands, so why not?

TheVoice Wrote:

I'm not aware of any evidence for any of that. A lot of what you say is contradicted by other sources - for example, the Fortress of Vorag is not and has never been a Chaos Dwarf stronghold: it was built by the Ghoul King Vorag (this goes back to at least the 4th/5th Edition Undead Army Book) and destroyed by Goblins.

If we're talking about background you've come up with yourself, then fine, but let's make it clear that there's nothing written anywhere in any official publications that suggests the Chaos Dwarfs control more than the Plain of Zhar, Gash Kadrak, Uzkulak, The Black Fortress and Gorgoth.

We're not. There were maps of the CD Empire produced with all these places on it.but Link to Maps:

I'm not going to make clear something that isn't true, please ascertain whether this is my own fluff before saying it is in future.

The only colony in there that is down to personal preference is Vorag, because whilst I did find stuff saying it was originally a CD fortress which was rebuilt by the ghouls (which makes more sense than ghouls raising one from scratch far from any mountains IMO) I can't remember where it was and thus prove its veracity. It convinced me it was legit, but I won't present it in future.

The rest, though, is (or in some cases *was*) ours.

Just to keep things amicable, I don't want to debate the existence of these colonies in this thread. There are maps, and the existence of the listed colonies, Vorag aside) is undisputed on Hand of Hashut and by, it seems, many here. If you don't believe they exist you are welcome to, but I would prefer you did not participate in this discussion purely to dispute them.
The fortresses on that map have their names in a different typeface to anything else on there, which suggests they were added by a fan to me.

Look, I'm not interested in arguing about this either, and you can use whatever interpretation of the fluff you choose, but there's never going to be any "official" answers about what did or didn't happen to places that may or may not even exist in the canon of the Warhammer setting.
I know, so this was more a 'what's happened in these areas' thread. I've been playing CDs long enough to know not to expect an official reply.
Possibly this belongs in the Background section of the forums then? That's where most of the theorising and fan-made fluff goes, I think. I don't know if that map is official, or if there's any evidence that the Chaos Dwarfs hold (or used to hold) territory outside the Plain of Zharr, but without an official answer either way, all we can do is give our opinions.

Not that there's a problem with that, I just felt that there were some assumptions being made about the background earlier on in the thread. Apologies for any misunderstandings, TheVoice; I didn't mean to come off as abrasive as I did.
No problem. If this needs moving I guess an admin can do so.

And both Gorgoth and Uzkulak are outside the Plain of Zharr.
True - but I don't think they have any actual territory besides the strongholds and it's my belief that the only strongholds that canonically exist are those on the map in WD presents: CD. That means Uzkulak, Gorgoth and The Black Fortress. The jury is still out on Daemon's Stump and the Fortress of Vorag is ruins.
What about Black Fortress?
It's inhabited by Chaos Dwarfs according to a fluff piece in an issue of White Dwarf - an Imperial explorer/merchant travelling with a caravan guarded by Ogres talks about hearing rumours of "dark dwarfs who enslave daemons" (or something similar) living there.
Alright, I found the place where Fortress of Vorag was a CD Fortress, it was in the prior edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay fluff, from back when Hashut had daemons. is the only link I can find. If it doesn't work, its linked to using a tag 'This:' on the first page on "Of Hashut... and of Daemons" in this forum.
Its fan fluff? I never played WFRP, so I couldn't tell.

Thommy H Wrote:
The fortresses on that map have their names in a different typeface to anything else on there, which suggests they were added by a fan to me.

Those new forteresses seems to indicate places mentioned in the fan fluff by Hand of Hashut. Im not sure, but I know that they are not shown in any other map of the dark lands.

The Wiki is pretty comprehensive with this kind of thing. If it isn't mentioned in one of the sources cited in Chaos Dwarf References it's probably fan-made.
Hmmm. It is true that HoH pretty much made CD fluff their own during the years I was there (some were exploring a legal claim to one of the Dwarf holds at some point). Still, given there's not likely to be an official ruling I think I prefer the idea that we have an empire to that we don't. After all, we've been breeding since before The Empire was founded, not having expanded any is a tad dissapointing.

Looking at it, the guy provides a lot of provenance right at the bottom of the article, including numbered WD issues. Has this been checked out before its debunked?
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