As I was writing over on Hand of Hashut, I was thinking the other day that GW might not necessarily have the Chaos Dwarf profiles exactly the same as the Dwarfs.
I had always taken it for granted that they would... After all, you'd think a Chaos Dwarf warrior and Dwarf warrior would be very similar in strength, toughness etc.
Note that I didn't phrase it as if they were fighting each other, as you might have an army special rule that would change how good they were against each other (like hatred against Dwarfs for instance).
Anyhow, what I thought was +1 initiative across the board compared to the Dwarf equivalent. Hashuts Blessing suggested -1Ld, which would be used to balance this out.
EDIT:
Sorcerer/ Sorcerer Lord may be the exception to this as they have unique fluff and rules.
Thoughts?
+1 Strength may be interesting for Core, but special elite infantry would put them at S5 before any weapon modifiers...
Decreasing initiative would mean LD 1. Which is the same as Trolls and rat swarms...
Leadership is worth significantly more than Initiative. Low ranking elves are all the same, even the WE who have been changed by the woodlands.
While I'm not adverse to CDs being pretty different, I can't see any easy way of doing it with stat lines without losing a lot of their dwarfness.
I agree, there really isn't much that could be changed. Which I guess is a good thing as its one thing GW will hopefully not mess up...
Another remote possibility is +1WS at all levels, which would obviously push up the price per model a fair bit, but would perhaps show they fight more often as they have a smaller army?
I'd like to keep leadership where it is. Base LD 9 is a wonderful thing, and LD 10 characters are a blessing in of itself.
I'd rather have +1S then +1 WS or I. The -1 to save, and a pip easier to wound adds up very quickly.
EditL
Also while I'd dread -1 WS, it'd make more sense than +1 WS as we rely on slaves to do a lot of fighting. At least, that's the way it strikes me. There is the valid point that while we rely on slaves, the warriors we have have to fight more often as there is not as wide a selection as regular Dwarfs have. WS4 seems just right.
I'd love +1S on our core guys, or at the very least an upgrade similar to Longbeards or Chosen where we could have more grizzled veterans that have better S and/or (even better) better armor!
I'd love to have 2+ armor in combat with Ld 9 (or 10 with a character)! That'd be solid, especially if we get +1S! Just give me a BSB and the unit is gold.
personally I see the high leadership of CD as fitting. They are a loyal clan based society and imo seem like one of the more stable socieities. To represent this have the high LD but no stubborn troops (I think most CD will run from a loosing battle unless there is a sorcrer nearby). Though to make them different from dwarfs maybe make them a bit cheaper but not able to march all the time (I don't see CD fighting often as they would make the slaves and hobgoblins do it so they aren't as good as normal dwarfs)
edt: While I doubt it would happen i would like them to keep the LD10 heroes. make the lord more of a fighter type to compensate.
something like
hero = 80pts
m: 3
ws: 6
bs: 4
s: 4
t: 5
w: 2
i: 3
a: 3
ld: 10
lord = 120
m: 3
ws: 8
bs: 4
s: 4
t: 5
w: 3
i: 4
a: 4
ld: 10
I could see -1 Ld (with an option to be upgraded to "City Guard" with Ld 9 or something), but Initiative 2 is just a Dwarf trait. You might as well give them Movement 4.
LD 10 heroes are obscenely good. GW will almost certainly get rid of this if they redo the army. Hopefully that will result in lower points cost for the CD, or they may just leave the points the same and give us an army wide special rule.
I'm not sure if GW would adjust the other stats much. CD are still Dwarfs after all.
If we got a special unit of foot troops would you rather have: immune to psych or stubborn?
I love stubborn, and I've often said it is one of my favorite rules. With BSB two chances at 9 or even 10 are wonderful, however with Demons, VC, and Forest Spirits running amuck then immune to psych could be very useful too... of course causing fear is perhaps better then being immune to psych (aside from being vulnerable to panic).
I'd love it if Bull Centaurs caused fear!
That'd make them even more of a potent weapon.
Causing fear would go a long way to redressing the imbalance with them.
I was wondering about the leadership of the Lords as well. It's another of those occasions when you wonder how exactly GW go about balancing armies both against each other, and in terms of their army fluff.
For instance:
Unlike some of the stat names 'leadership' represents exactly what it is. So is a CD lord who is Ld10 any better a leader than a Sorcerer Lord? That would be one change I think I would make. Keep the Sorcerer lord as the only LD10 character.
That balances it within the CD list, but compared to some of the other Ld10 lords of other armies, IMO a Chaos Dwarf lord should also be Ld10 because of their iron grip on those under their command. So there's the bit you have to balance; the fluff bit within the list itself and balancing them compared to other armies lords. Tricky.
+1S would certainly make our list a lot more elite... I'm not sure the CD would necessarily be that different on strength, unless you really changed the fluff on how Dwarfs/ CD aged (i.e. getting stronger with age rather than weaker).
Increasing weapon skill or initiative would be the only ones I could see changing. Decreasing leadership could be possible, but not as likely IMO.
EDIT:
If I were to change the WS, I'd do it like this:
LORD
(CD Lord): WS8
(Sorcerer Lord) WS4 (for fluff reasons)
HERO
(CD Hero): WS7
(Sorcerer): WS4 (fluff reasons)
(Engineer, if there is one) WS5
All Core, Special and Rare Chaos Dwarf infantry units: WS5
The 'elite' CD infantry in Special would be Strength 4.
The increase in WS would mean +10 base points cost for lord and hero, +1pt per model for units?
If the elites are WS 5, then Heroes would be WS 6 and Lord WS 7. That's just the Way Things Work in Warhammer. I can't think of any reason Chaos Dwarfs would be better besides "we want them to be because they're our army".
I strongly disagree with S4. It's like saying we'll have T5 dwarfs as the core. It's supposed to represent the avergae Chais Dwarf warrior and I don't believe there is any credible reason for it. I'm still not 100% sure why the statline would need to be different, but if it were (I did consider a change in WS at first), I'd say either +1WS and point per model OR +1WS and +1I, with -1Ld, except for the sorcerers or have the same and +1Ld, -1I (compared to a Lord or hero. Probably a lower WS, but you get what I mean), with no change to points...
I'd say the higher weapon skill would be slave rebellions, keeping them controlled, slave whipping, as aforementioned, the fewer members means the more fighting each has to do, they're likely to train for war more than the dwarfs would. Their initiative may be increased because of having to react to the dangers of industry (more industry than the dwarfs) and the slaves, whereas leadership because it seems a little fitting (mostly for game balance, though)...
However, I still think that a change in stats is unnecessary, really. Special rules are abundant left, right and centre, so add a couple of those: E.G. Hate dwarfs and Stubborn (for CDs only).
Hate Dwarfs for the abandonment and Stubborn because they have seen scarier stuff and need to grit their teeth to get through more... Maybe have the Stubborn as a +1pt/model upgarde or something, but it can be bought for a number of units equal to the characters present or something...
I don't even think Chaos Dwarfs need special rules - certainly not Stubborn for everyone. That's powerful. Only elite units in other armies get that. Again, no one has provided any convincing reasons for CDs being more powerful than Dwarfs in future incarnations besides "we would like our army to just be better". I doubt very much it's going to happen, and the flimsy reasons don't cut it for me.
i think the need a group like the slayer that are unbreakable.
besides that i think they should be the sameas the dwarfs
Sounds good, i certainly wouldn't say no to unbreakable Immortals. However, the Heavy Armour would make them far better than the slayers.
Perhaps CDs/daemonologists who've been possessed by lesser daemons/crazed by their experience
Yea most army has more all around stuff like flying beast fast calv. gun line !!!!
but i think un armmor warriors freking mad out of there head would be cool to add to the cd!!! they have the toughness and skill to kill and you don't leave it to the hobos hoard
I posted in rules develop that for me is much better :
+1 armour save I: 1.
their skin is turning to stone so are much more difficult to break through and also becomes slower.
should be a general rule for all the army: STONE CURSE.
Nawabra, the stone curse only affects sorcerers and the +1AS army wide, is more overpowered than army-wide Stubborn, to be honest. Also, since dwarfs have I2 anyway, it's not that fair a trade-off anyway.
Thommy H: Maybe have the Stubborn as a +1pt/model upgarde or something, but it can be bought for a number of units equal to the characters present or something...
That was a suggestion I made because I realised (after typing it), that it would be too powerful otherwise.
As for having special rules, I'd say only ones that make them on par to the dwarfs. Dwarfs hate all Greenskins, so we can hate dwarfs. Dwarfs have +2 dispel dice, we can cast magic. Dwarfs can flee and pursue only 2D6"-1, we should as well. Dwarfs can march within 8" of enemies, we should be able to or have another suitably weak special rule (note to all: I'm saying it's weak in comparison to Stubborn, not saying it is useless or hindeering).
[quote=Hashut's Blessing]
Nawabra, the stone curse only affects sorcerers and the +1AS army wide, is more overpowered than army-wide Stubborn, to be honest. Also, since dwarfs have I2 anyway, it's not that fair a trade-off anyway.
I know , but try to think it like a new special rule, Their dwarf nature fights the chaos corruption of their souls. Read the post I drped at rules develop about the new GW special rules. Strike First is a overpowered rule, nigromacy spell re-cast also but there it are... elves have T 3 yes , but strike first with 2 handed weapons so they kill those who can harm them with his T.3 .
We have +1 sv. but many units use 2 handed weapons so saves are really balanced, and sv 2+ with S. 3 is no worth vs swordmasters or white lions... blood dragon knights...