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You should keep it but it definately needs to be reworked. No more of this reading through huge portions of text describing how to build something. I would like to see more terrain building contests (now that ive got metres of foamboard and a hot wire cutter lol).
One thing that has been discussed is having a creative writing contest for lore, or short stories, or even rules creation for a special character or similar.

Anyone like those ideas?
Simply an article about war machines?  Certainly we need some constraints or else what is the contest even about?  The GH is a painting and modelling competition, but it's nature it is constrained in that way. "An article" could be pretty much anything including text and images, and thus painting and modelling as well, computer graphics work, drawing... etc etc.

Do you have any more clarification of what you intend?

Xander Wrote:
One thing that has been discussed is having a creative writing contest for lore, or short stories, or even rules creation for a special character or similar.

Anyone like those ideas?


I like the idea of writing Short Stories but i dont know how many people would want to read through them all. Creating rules is something that only a small amount of people would be interested in, and again, not many people would want to have to read through them all and it would be quite a hard thing to judge.

The main problem, as I see it, is that the Golden Hat is a modelling/painting competition that inevitably attracts the best of the best. Putting up the Artisan's Contest in a manner that competes with the Hat, in any area, only drags down both - certainly, models are not a requirement to enter the Contest, but realistically only the entries with models or good artwork can win.

Therefore, we need to separate the Artisan's Contest as far as possible from the Golden Hat, making it vary from Contest to Contest, but never touching on models. An Artisan Contest could cover...
a) Artwork
b) Drabbles
c) Short stories
d) Special Characters
e) Tactics Guides
...in a similar format to the Golden Hat, but never infringing on it.

This would be my idea.
I honestly don't know which option to vote for, but I will add here that all the things mentionned don't have to be part of a competition at all.

Terrain/ rules/ stories etc.  All these things could just be things that people did anyway and put on the site.

An idea to consider.
I like the idea of doing lore or rules or fanfiction, although it's a good point that we may not all want to read through reams of text.  I think that's been a problem with the artisan's contest from the beginning however.  As soon as I saw entries that were describing things that might be good hobby projects, rather than the hobby project itself, I lost interest in the whole process.  However, if part of the writing and competition process includes editing advice and revisions and fine-tuning of the submissions, lore etc might be interesting to explore.

Basically in my opinion the contest as it stands is pretty dull, particularly in terms of the "write about this idea you have for a cool terrain piece" parts.  Make a terrain piece - yes!  Describe it - no thanks.  

Write some interesting fanfiction - sure, competition might promote more creative and polished ideas.  Make some neat special characters - cool, sounds good.
I always liked the "creative crazyness" aspect of the Artisan's contest, but then again I never quite got to grips with the way in which the ideas were to be presented.

I felt that describing things in text format is a) boring and b) favours those whose first language is English, which may be fine because it probably covers 80% of the community here, but it's not my thing.
Hm, thanks, although strictly speaking TLTG and Revlid both beat me to it, I just intended to comment on those suggestions.
Would it be worth creating another poll with the types of categories that Tarrakk did above?  We could make it so you can vote on multiple things, the things that you would actually want to enter.

That way we can find out what level of interest there is in each of these types of things, so we don't go with something that only has 3 people enter.
To be fair, battle reports aren't actually that interesting unless you played in them. They were always my least favourite part of White Dwarf. I don't think it's fair to extrapolate a trend from the unpopularity of battle reports on the forums - though I don't think we should do a competition based on writing them.

Rules are the way to go! Design a war machine! Who wouldn't want to enter that competition, eh?
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread, so I likely won't comment again on this, but I utterly oppose the Artisan's Contest having any element of modelling or painting - that's what the Golden Hat is for.

The Artisan's Contest should be for people with fewer skills in the modelling/painting side of things, but with writing or drawing or rules development abilities.
The Golden Hat is the modelling/painting competition. Seems self-explanatory to me. If we're going to have another competition, I agree that it should be for something totally different (creative writing, scenarios, rules, etc.).

Willmark Wrote:

Revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread, so I likely won't comment again on this, but I utterly oppose the Artisan's Contest having any element of modelling or painting - that's what the Golden Hat is for.


Did I (we) miss something here?


...

Erm.

I'm not entirely sure how you could have missed something here.

Tarrakk Blackhand Wrote:
Question for mods.....isn't there a link to a page somewhere on here that shows the past winners for GH's and Artisans? I'd like to see if I'm right in stating that GH was for figures and Artisan's was for models.

Go the the main website for the GH stuff.  For AC we have no single page showing winners.

Figures versus models? I am not sure what you mean.

As others have suggested, the artisan's contest was started as a contest that was supposed to emphasize non-modelling/painting.  I am of the opinion that it should stay that way.  If we want to do terrain or other model based stuff that should just be under Golden Hat, in my view.

@Tarrakk
Having 5 or 6 different contests running seperately is much harder to administer and plan for than just 2.  

For instance, unless we ran several simultaneously it would be at least a year between the same type of contest.  Running them simultaneously means a lot more work for the staff to keep track of and plan ahead for.

It would be possible to broadly split all CDO competitions and ideas into 3 areas:

Hobby:
Golden Hat – Warhammer scale miniatures
‘Creative craziness’; Terrain Building, random objectives and models

Background:
Story Writing
Sketch Artist's

Rules:
Rules Writing
Tactics Guides

Now if you looked at these three areas and compare them to the CDO equivalent sections, it's clear IMO why we've had problems in the past, and why we need to sort this out.  The hobby section of CDO is probably at least twice as busy as the rules and background sections put together.

The problem with the Artisans as I see it is that we have so many potential areas that having the same structure and judging system for all of them is just impossible.

So if we do decide to stick to our planned competition calender for 2009, we'd have 3 slots to do *something*.

2009
JANUARY - GH #8 Opens
FEBRUARY - GH #8 Closes
MARCH - Artisans #4 Opens
APRIL - Artisans #4 Closes
MAY - GH #9 Opens
JUNE - GH #9 Closes
JULY - Artisans #5 Opens
AUGUST - Artisans #5 Closes
SEPTEMBER - GH #10 Opens
OCTOBER - GH #10 Closes
NOVEMBER - Artisans #6 Opens
DECEMBER - Artisans #6 Closes

We need to be realistic about how many people will enter each type, if we only have 3 opportunities a year we need to pick and choose carefully so we get the maximum number of entries.  Of the 5 possible areas above I would just stick to any combination of these three, doing the same set every year so it's clear:

'Creative craziness’; Terrain Building, random objectives and models
Story Writing
Rules Writing

I am still not convinced that we need actual competitions for these, but if enough people want to do it and they are prepared to judge them sensibly then I guess we roll with the majority.

Although I agree it is definately worth sorting this out now, unless we decide something soon we don't need to panic as the next slot is July.

You all realise btw that there is nothing to stop anyone from starting their own competitions.  Hypothetically if the staff were only responsible for administering the Golden Hats, the rest could be managed by you, our members.

Tarrakk Blackhand Wrote:

revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread...


I think Willmark is wondering why there's hostility in the post.


Oh, I see.

That comment was directed at myself, no-one else, to signify that I didn't really have anything further to say beyond "I don't want x to happen" - a put-down.

That said, I see where you're coming from with the "lots of competitions" thing - I just have to wonder if splitting it into "Models" (whether that be regiments, monsters, characters, terrain, warmachines, dioramas, duels, Chaos Squats, banners or campaign tokens) and "Not Models" (stories, rules, art, fluff, drabbles, concepts, battle reports, tacticas) would be far simpler for the purposes of archiving, organisation, naming, etc. Each individual "Not Models" category will have fairly limited entrance as seperate competitions compared to "Models" as a whole.

Quote:
That said, I see where you're coming from with the "lots of competitions" thing - I just have to wonder if splitting it into "Models" (whether that be regiments, monsters, characters, terrain, warmachines, dioramas, duels, Chaos Squats, banners or campaign tokens) and "Not Models" (stories, rules, art, fluff, drabbles, concepts, battle reports, tacticas) would be far simpler for the purposes of archiving, organisation, naming, etc. Each individual "Not Models" category will have fairly limited entrance as seperate competitions compared to "Models" as a whole.


Yeah, this is pretty much what I think should happen. My understanding of the Artisan's Contest was that it was supposed to be a competition for people who weren't so good at painting and modelling. Unfortunatley, the implementation of that aim has been pretty poor so far, with the organisers being reluctant to step entirely outside the concept of creating a model. So we've had weird hybrids where we pit descriptions of a terrain feature against actual models, with predictable results.

Even in this thread, I see real opposition (mostly from Staff) to doing a competition that doesn't involve models in any way, or an attempt to redefine what "modelling" means so it doesn't include terrain or what have you. Yes, I know it's harder to judge something that isn't a model, yes I know people are less likely to read a long-winded scenario or set of rules than they are to look at a picture and make a gut decision about it, but you gotta speculate to accumulate, you know? There's a lot of great content being produced on this website, and not all of it is going to go in the Word of Hashut or something. Some of the best models we've seen have been created because of the Golden Hat - it follows that a competition for unit rules, or fiction, or scenarios would produce the best examples of that.

Rules can be a very tricky one to judge compared to models, the age old trade off of cool against balanced.  Something which you wouldn't see in the painting or writing competitions.
I wasn't suggesting strong feelings: just a general air of opposition to the concept. I know I've said this elsewhere, but I don't think the whole "it'll never work!" argument holds much water given how some of the previous Artisan's Contests have gone. We've told entrants to describe a hypothetical model before now - I think we can afford to take a risk and let people write some rules or fiction Wink
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