03-15-2008, 07:11 PM
So what's happening here? Is this still going ahead? Over at Warseer there is a thread where heaps of people are gathering, brainstorming and discussing new unit types and ideas for a 7th edition incarnation of Chaos Dwarfs.
03-15-2008, 07:11 PM
04-01-2008, 12:59 PM
Ok ppl i se that you tried to do sth or at least told you wanted. I have some ideas about how ChD could look like. Here are some ideas
- Blunderbusses should be changed.I think that it has S3 all the time but instead it doesnt hit on 4+ all the time, but on 4+ if there is only one rank of blunderbussers and +1 for every full rank, up to 2+ for three ranks.Otherwise, everything is as it was.
Units:
Characters: As they were.
Core:
- warriors and hobgoblins. Hobbos count as core choice, but there must be less or equal of their units to the ChD warrior units
- a slavemaster. Sth to boost hobgoblin units morale and efectivity(with the gelp of a whip). Also, he is sth like a weak char, with 2A, and does not count as a core choice
- Blunderbusses should be changed.I think that it has S3 all the time but instead it doesnt hit on 4+ all the time, but on 4+ if there is only one rank of blunderbussers and +1 for every full rank, up to 2+ for three ranks.Otherwise, everything is as it was.
Units:
Characters: As they were.
Core:
- warriors and hobgoblins. Hobbos count as core choice, but there must be less or equal of their units to the ChD warrior units
- a slavemaster. Sth to boost hobgoblin units morale and efectivity(with the gelp of a whip). Also, he is sth like a weak char, with 2A, and does not count as a core choice
04-01-2008, 01:38 PM
it would be cool to see a hobgoblin lord 
04-02-2008, 10:13 AM
nope, no hobbos rise to such a high power. As for now, im writing sth like an army list for newChD. Mabe it wont be perfect, but it can be changed. Also, id like to get any unit to write fluff about it.
05-15-2008, 01:45 PM
I'm not saying that I should be the one to take this over. All too often people say they will do something; then realize the time and effort required and then it dies a death of neglect. In order to pull this off someone would have to be über dedicated to the task and have laser focus on this.
In short whoever undertakes this has to be a dictator or nothing gets done. It hasn't for almost a year that the various ideas for a book have been floating around I. Equally varied threads.
I'm also not convinced on what this would entail as grabbing large swathes from the 4th edition book is probably Verboten..
In short whoever undertakes this has to be a dictator or nothing gets done. It hasn't for almost a year that the various ideas for a book have been floating around I. Equally varied threads.
I'm also not convinced on what this would entail as grabbing large swathes from the 4th edition book is probably Verboten..
05-15-2008, 04:20 PM
Of course "design by commitee" us asking for trouble regardless. I have firsthand experience with this.
Taking a different tack on Grim's point is this. Is this project going to have a chance?
- if playing with gamers who are "mature" you've got a shot.
- you'll never be able to take it to a tournament GW or otherwise.
- adding a boatload of new units? Look at point one again...
So there you have it. Even Grim and I disagree on this on some points. See below in fact a great deal of this would be designed with writing out the rules first then the fluff.
UPDATE: What I have been thinking that might work is this:
Split the Chaos Dwarf Army list into three parts... The first part would be the revised PDF list, cleaned up and brought into 7th edition. this list would form the basis.
The second part would be the rules for all of the models that came before. The Whirlwind, the Tenderizer, the Jugger etc.. this would satisfy those of the old school persuasion. In some cases it simply requires bringing the specs from the 3rd edition Warhammer Armies Book up to 7th, we wouldn't need to re invent the wheel here.
The third part would be the modern take ala the Gav influenced more daemonic type... Insert your Kollosus here.
By doing this it makes a common framework and combined a lot of the disparate ideas.
Now here is the trick: how to make all those work together. The great thing is that Parts II and III are I think more of an easier thing to do. Many have written excellent rules that would go into those parts, it would simply be a case of codifying them into a tome (or two), much like Grim is suggesting.
The trick is to resist the temptation on Part I and redo everything under the sun.
I've got some ideas as to how this might work; let me kick it around a bit more before I fully lay out the intentions.
Taking a different tack on Grim's point is this. Is this project going to have a chance?
- if playing with gamers who are "mature" you've got a shot.
- you'll never be able to take it to a tournament GW or otherwise.
- adding a boatload of new units? Look at point one again...
So there you have it. Even Grim and I disagree on this on some points. See below in fact a great deal of this would be designed with writing out the rules first then the fluff.
UPDATE: What I have been thinking that might work is this:
Split the Chaos Dwarf Army list into three parts... The first part would be the revised PDF list, cleaned up and brought into 7th edition. this list would form the basis.
The second part would be the rules for all of the models that came before. The Whirlwind, the Tenderizer, the Jugger etc.. this would satisfy those of the old school persuasion. In some cases it simply requires bringing the specs from the 3rd edition Warhammer Armies Book up to 7th, we wouldn't need to re invent the wheel here.
The third part would be the modern take ala the Gav influenced more daemonic type... Insert your Kollosus here.
By doing this it makes a common framework and combined a lot of the disparate ideas.
Now here is the trick: how to make all those work together. The great thing is that Parts II and III are I think more of an easier thing to do. Many have written excellent rules that would go into those parts, it would simply be a case of codifying them into a tome (or two), much like Grim is suggesting.
The trick is to resist the temptation on Part I and redo everything under the sun.
I've got some ideas as to how this might work; let me kick it around a bit more before I fully lay out the intentions.
05-15-2008, 09:33 PM
The time consuming part of new rules is the play testing. Theorical predictions and "Mathhammer" are fine to a point, but it takes alot of play testing with different people to get a sense on how good the new rules are.
@ Willmark
Are we legally allowed to copy the PDF into something else?
If we follow your suggestion with the three parts could (and will it be easier) to have three separate (but working loosely together) leaders?
@ everyone
We should come up with a clear objective (or set of objectives) before starting this project.
@ Willmark
Are we legally allowed to copy the PDF into something else?
If we follow your suggestion with the three parts could (and will it be easier) to have three separate (but working loosely together) leaders?
@ everyone
We should come up with a clear objective (or set of objectives) before starting this project.
05-15-2008, 11:25 PM
Theory_Man Wrote:
@ Willmark
Are we legally allowed to copy the PDF into something else?
Are we legally allowed to copy the PDF into something else?
Probably a gray area of IP law... Fair use and all not withstanding...
Here are some great threads that have the most promise from this sub forum...
This identifies the main issues of the list quite nicely:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...=11&page=3
Obviously someone else was thinking some of the same things I just thought up over a year ago:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=70
Some great ideas from Cornixt here:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=139
Some well thought out rules, (though some room for improvement here from Wallacer)
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=372
Some OK rules here but need a lot of work:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=113
Pyro’s Rules for the 3rd edition bazuka
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=925
Pyro’s rules for the Whirlwind and Tenderizer
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=926
Thommy’s excellent Zhatan
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...hp?tid=993
Thommy’s well thought out Astragoth
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=1043
Thommy’s well thought out Gorduz Backstabber
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=1055
Thommy’s rules for Immortals
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=1928
Interesting idea from Grim:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=1928
Grim’s Smoke Mortar
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=2254
05-16-2008, 06:36 AM
Agreed the rules should be driven by the models, not by the fluff. However some basic assumptions have to be answered since our rules are so nebulous.
- What are hobgoblins? Slaves or mercenaries?
- Which versions of hobgoblins are we to use? The sneaky cowards of our list or the quasi-mongols of the DoW?
- Blunderbusses, clean up.
- Further clarify the minimal rewrite thread, as this speaks most to addressing the issues.
- If the goals is to just clean up then we have to stay faithful to the army book That means by way of example that hobgob wolf boyz can drop in unit size to 5 to keep them in lines with say the O&G armybook, but they don't get spears, they didn't hav the ability back in 4th, why now?
There are many more, these are just examples.
Best place to start in my honest opinion is the rules of the PDF and break that down even further. The only army book we have ever had is just that a collection of articles... So my proposal is to use that as a guide for book 1. Take the blunderbuss. It works great, but there are some issue with it that need to be addressed. i.e when shooting at creatures with multi wounds etc... TH rules to correct this can be found here. Take all that get the rules together, play test it to make sure it works then mark that off. Assemble some photos have a small bit of fluff and bang (pun intended), the first part is done. It could even bee done in a PDF by itself to start. As time goes by we add to the PDF as sections get completed.
Lastly as far as project lead (and don't take the personally) something of this magnitude needs a few levels and at the very top needs to be one of the admins or mods to really keep the Dev Team on task and review goals and timelines. Not saying this to be a hard ass either. Its simply that too many of these projects stagger on like zombies due to lack of focus. Here is a prime example:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...3#pid38563
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=2498
We are now nearing the completion of the first issue and have the second's outline started... Only happened because someone took a major "a-hole" approach to it! This has to happen here of a even higher order of magnitude and for an even more sustained period of time...
So even before this starts goals need to be lain out, time lines determined, and the project team of the Core dedicated individuals assigned from a rules perspective. And I mean dedicated! Fluff can come at a latter point.
- What are hobgoblins? Slaves or mercenaries?
- Which versions of hobgoblins are we to use? The sneaky cowards of our list or the quasi-mongols of the DoW?
- Blunderbusses, clean up.
- Further clarify the minimal rewrite thread, as this speaks most to addressing the issues.
- If the goals is to just clean up then we have to stay faithful to the army book That means by way of example that hobgob wolf boyz can drop in unit size to 5 to keep them in lines with say the O&G armybook, but they don't get spears, they didn't hav the ability back in 4th, why now?
There are many more, these are just examples.
Best place to start in my honest opinion is the rules of the PDF and break that down even further. The only army book we have ever had is just that a collection of articles... So my proposal is to use that as a guide for book 1. Take the blunderbuss. It works great, but there are some issue with it that need to be addressed. i.e when shooting at creatures with multi wounds etc... TH rules to correct this can be found here. Take all that get the rules together, play test it to make sure it works then mark that off. Assemble some photos have a small bit of fluff and bang (pun intended), the first part is done. It could even bee done in a PDF by itself to start. As time goes by we add to the PDF as sections get completed.
Lastly as far as project lead (and don't take the personally) something of this magnitude needs a few levels and at the very top needs to be one of the admins or mods to really keep the Dev Team on task and review goals and timelines. Not saying this to be a hard ass either. Its simply that too many of these projects stagger on like zombies due to lack of focus. Here is a prime example:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...3#pid38563
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...p?tid=2498
We are now nearing the completion of the first issue and have the second's outline started... Only happened because someone took a major "a-hole" approach to it! This has to happen here of a even higher order of magnitude and for an even more sustained period of time...
So even before this starts goals need to be lain out, time lines determined, and the project team of the Core dedicated individuals assigned from a rules perspective. And I mean dedicated! Fluff can come at a latter point.
05-16-2008, 08:23 AM
Are you familiar with the Direwolf FAQs? Another place to gather information from.
Timeline and deadline. There needs to be a high level timeline for this. My proposal is November 1st of 2008 for a deadline for all three sections...
Specing out the list is to be added first. The problem areas have already been identified and each unit needs to be reviewed as a starting point. Special rules need to be spelled out and clarfied.
So to start:
- let's list out the sections in an outline form (chapters in essence).
- list out each unit
- list problems, gray areas of each unit (if any)
- define which parts are to be included in the book from the O&G book. Its rediculous for GW to expect that a CD player is going to buy that book for a few statlines.
- list the rules for animosity.
- the armory section should spell out the issues with blunderbuss and its corrections.
Do you have the 4th edition book?
Canix and Minty help so noted and will be called on as needed.
-
Timeline and deadline. There needs to be a high level timeline for this. My proposal is November 1st of 2008 for a deadline for all three sections...
Specing out the list is to be added first. The problem areas have already been identified and each unit needs to be reviewed as a starting point. Special rules need to be spelled out and clarfied.
So to start:
- let's list out the sections in an outline form (chapters in essence).
- list out each unit
- list problems, gray areas of each unit (if any)
- define which parts are to be included in the book from the O&G book. Its rediculous for GW to expect that a CD player is going to buy that book for a few statlines.
- list the rules for animosity.
- the armory section should spell out the issues with blunderbuss and its corrections.
Do you have the 4th edition book?
Canix and Minty help so noted and will be called on as needed.
-
05-17-2008, 03:53 PM
Grimstonefire Wrote:
Just to clarify willmark, what you are proposing is more of an updated 'tome of information', rather than 1 single list?
I.e.
Section 1: Bringing RH into 7th ed (unchanged in terms of unit composition).
Section 2: Bringing all old units/ warmachines into 7th ed.
Section 3: Choosing a varied selection of new things and including rules.
However, together all 3 parts do not make a balanced list. This would be made totally clear from the start. It would be more of a book of rules people can use rather than a single balanced list?
I.e.
Section 1: Bringing RH into 7th ed (unchanged in terms of unit composition).
Section 2: Bringing all old units/ warmachines into 7th ed.
Section 3: Choosing a varied selection of new things and including rules.
However, together all 3 parts do not make a balanced list. This would be made totally clear from the start. It would be more of a book of rules people can use rather than a single balanced list?
Correct.
Parts 2 and 3 are most likely going to be the case of being either special or rare. I really don't see any units that might come up being Core. Could happen, crossbows anyone?
To sum up I think we should put together a cleaned up of the list. The secondary parts are ones that are good for swapping out a unit here and there for games amongst the friends.
05-18-2008, 08:30 PM
Agreed. If any thing it needs to adhere exactly to the RH list.
My example of crossbows would be one of the few things that would be Core (by way of example). Only other would be Immortals off the top of my head, a upgrade to warriors in the vein of Longbeards with dwarfs.
So if we use this (by way of another example) hobgob wolf boyz DO NOT get spears despite the logical sense for them to have them. They didn't have them in the 4th ed list nor in RH list so its out.
- To Minty, Canix, et al
PM Ubertechie. he will get you checked in to the software we are using to manage this and assignments will be handed out.
Grim- I think you would be an excellent candidate to head up the Special Characters section. I would say partner with Thommy (if he wants to) as there are excellent starts already done with 3 characters already. Rykarth should be in there to round out the 4 "official" Special Characters. Any others should be in Volume 2 or 3.
Another brainstorm session is a master list of all unit types over the varying lists and a master list of all models assigned to the Chaos Dwarf range over the years. Whether or not they had rules. If they had rules then so much the better. Anyone want to head that up.
Basically my role in this (at least right now) is to help get this rolling and help Ubertechie get it off the ground. My other role will be to kick @ss where needed if someone slacks off.
My example of crossbows would be one of the few things that would be Core (by way of example). Only other would be Immortals off the top of my head, a upgrade to warriors in the vein of Longbeards with dwarfs.
So if we use this (by way of another example) hobgob wolf boyz DO NOT get spears despite the logical sense for them to have them. They didn't have them in the 4th ed list nor in RH list so its out.
- To Minty, Canix, et al
PM Ubertechie. he will get you checked in to the software we are using to manage this and assignments will be handed out.
Grim- I think you would be an excellent candidate to head up the Special Characters section. I would say partner with Thommy (if he wants to) as there are excellent starts already done with 3 characters already. Rykarth should be in there to round out the 4 "official" Special Characters. Any others should be in Volume 2 or 3.
Another brainstorm session is a master list of all unit types over the varying lists and a master list of all models assigned to the Chaos Dwarf range over the years. Whether or not they had rules. If they had rules then so much the better. Anyone want to head that up.
Basically my role in this (at least right now) is to help get this rolling and help Ubertechie get it off the ground. My other role will be to kick @ss where needed if someone slacks off.
05-19-2008, 02:53 AM
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showth...26&page=2, there is a cool idea for deamons of hashut, you might whant to look at it if you want to add deamons to the list
05-24-2008, 02:14 PM
For those who have missed it contact Ubertechie to sign up for this project, only those serious need apply.
06-05-2008, 10:29 AM
PDF. For the blundies is available for play testing. Sign up with ubertechie for being a playtester & getting feedback to him sob this section can be closed out.
From there it will be onto the next section.
From there it will be onto the next section.
07-28-2008, 08:23 PM
Any updates on this?
07-29-2008, 09:03 AM
is the project running or is it stopped
07-29-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't know Ubertechie was going to head this up hence my question as to where it is at.
08-01-2008, 01:42 PM
load them to photobucket.com and post the link. Or send the link to me and I can show you how it works.
10-12-2008, 09:52 AM
What this project needs is the following:
A strong dedicated leader that will be ready for a consistant work effort for nearly a year or more.
I'd take this on but most of my time is focused on the WoH. I am willing to act as the project sponsor on this I.d to help facilitate this.
In previously threads about this there are people adding "I'll write fluff, I'll diary, etc..." this is ENTIRELY the wrong approach. Get the rules done a small dedicated focused team write the rules clarify them, playtest, etc. Later worry about the layout, art fluff etc...
Are you volunteering to head this up?
A strong dedicated leader that will be ready for a consistant work effort for nearly a year or more.
I'd take this on but most of my time is focused on the WoH. I am willing to act as the project sponsor on this I.d to help facilitate this.
In previously threads about this there are people adding "I'll write fluff, I'll diary, etc..." this is ENTIRELY the wrong approach. Get the rules done a small dedicated focused team write the rules clarify them, playtest, etc. Later worry about the layout, art fluff etc...
Are you volunteering to head this up?