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no... you cannot fire into CC...
only skaven can fire into CC...
its in our FAQ...
allow me to re-iterate the FAQ... since you seem hard of reading...

Quote:
Q. Can you fire Chaos Dwarf blunderbusses if there is
a friendly unit in combat with an enemy
in the zone of
fire?
A. No, only Skaven can shoot when there is a chance of
hitting their own units.

if there is an enemy "in the zone of fire" and in combat with your troops you may not fire...
Only skaven may fire in this instance...

Quote:
To me, that's saying "if there is a friendly unit...in the zone of fire..."

um yes... if you exclude about half the words in the question you can make it say what you want...

Quote:
"if there is a....in combat with an enemy in the zone of fire."

this is closer... and if you include all of the words in the question the meaning does not change...
i think you may be on to some thing here...

Quote:
Think of it this way: What If my shot, aimed at another regiment, happened to clip the rear rank of a unit in combat? What then? Am I not allowed to fire because of that?

of course you cannot... the FAQ prohibits it...

there is nothing unclear...
only skaven can shoot at models in CC...
BB are not skaven... therefore they may not fire...

Thommy H Wrote:
Either it applies to the friendly units: "A friendly unit (in combat with the enemy) in the fire zone".

Or it applies just to the enemy units: "A friendly unit in combat with (the enemy in the fire zone)".

You're reading it in the second way; if the enemy that are fighting the friendly units are in the fire zone, that you can't target them.

no i am reading it both ways... the result is the same...
you cannot shoot... it is why the FAQ exists...

Thommy H Wrote:
Well you obviously aren't reading it both ways, since one way makes it sound like you can't shoot if your own unit is engaged in combat with enemy in the fire zone, and the other one says you can't shoot if just the enemy are in the fire zone.

you are correct... they both say you cannot shoot!
there is no allowance here... only restriction...

Quote:
I don't think I can explain it any better. Catbarf's (perfectly valid) reading of the FAQ means that you can target enemy in combat, since it specifies only that no friendly units need be in the fire zone.

no it doesn't... the faq says you cant...

Quote:
Your (also perfectly valid) reading says that you can't fire on enemy in the fire zone if they're in combat.

my reading is unimportant...
nothing gives BBs the ability to ignore the normal rules for shooting at units in CC...
so they may not... the FAQ is restating the obvious...

Quote:
There's no way to know the intent, though there are other reasons to believe that you're probably right.

the answer to the FAQ is "No"... so that is the intent...
clever hopeful reading will not give you what you want...

Thommy H Wrote:
we need to know what it's saying 'no' to

all you need to know is that it is not saying "yes"...
so BBs follow the normal procedure for firing at models in combat... not allowed...

well servius has it...
there has to be a valid target... and engaged models are not valid targets...
this FAQ does not allow anything... this FAQ is a restriction...
and in fact just restates the BRB for those too beardy to read it...

to creatively and legally abuse this FAQ however look at the LoS rules for BBs...
if say there is a unit of friendlies behind an unengaged enemy unit...

Quote:
FFFFFF
FFFFFF

EEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEE

BBBBBBB
BBBBBBB

the BBs may fire in this instance... as they cannot draw LoS to the friendly unit so they dont know its there...
as per the FAQ...

Quote:
FFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFF

EEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEE

BBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBB

they cannot fire in this instance... as they can draw LoS to the friendly unit so they do know its there...
as per the FAQ...

Quote:
FFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFF
EEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEE

BBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBB

they cannot fire in this instance... even if only the last rank of enemies fall under the template...
because the enemy is engaged... as per the BRB and the FAQ...

you can apply this to soft cover terrain like forests aswell:

Quote:
EEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEE

FFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF
FFFFF
F

BBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBB

Here the BBs can shoot through the forest (of course without penalty) to the enemy unit behind...
because they can draw LoS to them...

Quote:
EEEEEE
EEEEEE

FFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF
FFFFF
F

BBBBBBB
BBBBBBB

here they cannot shoot at the enemy because they dont know they are there...

good...
this only works in this unlikely clipping situation...
if your wolfboyz flee through your BBs they die...
its a shame n00bs will have to listen to this drivel...
80 hobgoblins are better than 40 hobgoblins... always...

you want this thread for orcs...
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/show...hp?tid=157
you have not proved its not true...
i have twice as many units...
i have twice as many flank charges...
i have twice as many meat shields...
i have twice as many distractions...
and i drop 200 less VP when they break...

you have two units poorly pretending to be dwarfs when you already have dwarfs on the table...

your tactics premote redundancy and useless options...
but at least you dont have the nerve to promote 7 point hobgoblin archers to anyone and call it good sense...
you guyz wanna play crappy units... play crappy units...
but dont promote crappy units as useful tactics...

you've been given a gift with hobgoblins... a gift that even O&G no longer has...
'ard grot tactics are a thing of the past in O&G armies... and all of our units are harder than theirs...
at 4 points 'ard grotz are simply too expensive... when 2 point naked grotz are so much more useful...

ross_lionheart Wrote:
I've actually found metros advice to be more informative than anybody elses on this forum or anyother forum on the net, so perhaps you should show him some respect.


The forum rules make it pretty clear that posters are expected to:
* Be polite to others, flaming, rudeness, swearing, shouting and causing nuisance or offense is not tolerated.

Anyhow, back on topic....
I personally would use a unit of 25 armoured hobgoblins in large part because I find units larger than 30 to be too awkward to maneuver.
I would not use them with a banner, but I would certainly give them a musician.
I would use units of Hobgobs naked as bow fodder, or possibly on the flanks to provide ranks against fast cav.
I've never used Hobgobs archers as I personally prefer orc archers (if i'm going to use archers at all).

Just my 5 cents.  Take it for what it's worth Wink

catbarf Wrote:
it doesn't cost a special slot like Orcs


To be honest I never use all my special slots with CD anyway, so the fact that Orcs use up a special slot is irrelevant for me (although admittedly perhaps not for those who have a penchant for Bolt Throwers and Death Rockets).

catbarf Wrote:
and don't the Orcs cost a bit more?


Well, yes... But you get toughness 4 and choppas thrown into the deal.
Confucius say: "you get what you pay for" Cheers!

Someone is bound to try and charge them eventually, then you get to panic fire at them and pummel the survivors with choppas (you can't tell me that doesn't sound like fun Tongue).
Arrerboyz only cost 1 point more than hobgoblins...
methinks you need to actually read the O&G book...

catbarf Wrote:
You stated that Hobgobs without armor are ALWAYS better than those with armor. This I disproved. See my example.

your example does not prove anything...
I have twice as many units... which are twice as useful...

Quote:
This is a whole other can of worms. The examples you gave me all featured a Hobgob unit of double the size for the same cost.

this is a lie...

Quote:
Yes, you can break it down into two units. But we cannot reliably calculate their effectiveness in comparison to the armored Hobgobs.

yes we can... twice as many units is twice as good...
so models with the same stats that cost half as much are twice as good...

Quote:
Not necessarily. The standard (which is only 100 VP by the way) is only captured if the winning unit pursues. If two units are in combat and only one flees, the standard will not be captured.

two standards are worth 200 vp... and your hobgoblins will break...

Quote:
I never stated that they were to be used like Dwarfs. In fact, I stated the opposite- that they must be supported with other units or they most likely can not win.

you have not stated the opposite... this a dwarf tactic...
you are using them as a tarpit requiring a flank charge...
to which they are ill suited... dwarfs do this better...
hobgoblins are not an anvil... square peg round hole...
if you want a tarpit use your dwarfs...
if you want hard hitters use your orcs...
if you want cheap troops to flank, shield, harrass and otherwise annoy your opponent use hobgoblins...
your T4 units win combat... your T3 units die...

Quote:
As I've already shown, armored Hobgobs perform better than naked Hobbos in various situations. Therefore, I will promote useful units with useful tactics.

it is not suprising that you have proven that a model that costs twice as much does better in a straight on fight...
bravo...
you have yet to prove that wasting points is useful tactics... tho you are trying awful hard...

Quote:
I've seen no hard evidence for armored hobgoblins being less effective than armored ones.

except i have twice as many... which somehow you refuse to acknowledge...

Quote:
A standard is your choice. But for the troops themselves, there are a multitude of reasons to take armored Hobgoblins.

not with required dwarfs on the table...

Quote:
Lastly, I'd like to re-iterate that Hobgoblins with armor are essentially Empire troops, and since Empire troops, when used correctly, can be effective, there is no reason for armored hobgoblins not to be.

Empire troops are only useful because they are the cheapest thing in the list...
so too it follows with hobgoblins...

Quote:
The forum rules make it pretty clear that posters are expected to:
* Be polite to others, flaming, rudeness, swearing, shouting and causing nuisance or offense is not tolerated.

isn't this shouting?

anyway your hobbie musician is overpriced...
but your Arrer boyz will make great warmachine protection...
they could get a musician if you had the points...

fast always flees if it is charged... musicians are invaluable for rally...

they are not the only fast cav to retain fast cav after a 4+ armor save...
Olog Khan's also retain the honour... must be a hobgoblin thing...
sometimes i wish i could rank them up... with a 10+ unit size anyway a +1CR would help sometimes...

bows are never worth it... at best they will do nothing...
at worst they will draw attention to your fragile and useful cav...
another 30 points wasted... but that is the theme of the thread...
re-reading the books is good for you catbarf...

there has been no math that proves 4 point 'ard grotz are worth the points...
not here... not on the warpath... not anywhere... because none exists...
don't suggest that the hobgobs be in different units... he seems quite oblivious to the fact...
and it might cause his ultra-maths to implode the universe...

you have not proved that hobbos are worth 4 points...
you have proved that of 2 awkward and poorly organized units of equal point values one will perform better...
and only just... both units will get stomped in round 2...

bottom line...
for your 25 'ard hobbos i get..
25 nekkid hobbos...
25 more nekkid hobbos...
and a bolt thrower...
i hit as hard (not very)... i hit twice as much (still not often)... and i bring artillery...

maths FTW!!!!!
yes... which is why full armor is superior to bows in all circumstances for wolfboyz...
i have to take dwarfs instead of 90 hobgoblins...
and they are the tar pit unit... and better at it in every way...
so why on earth would i waste my other points putting armor on my grotz?
get out your magic calculator that somehow makes minimum requirements go away...
BTW... 9 units of 10 nekkid grotz are a superior way of fielding them than 'ard grotz...

news flash!: hobgoblins lose combat... thats what they do...

this is so surreal...
yes it is worth spending an extra 20 points on the unit to keep your 11 point models alive... always...

he protects the hell out of worthless grotz...
and as soon as you give them something useful to do he takes away their gear...
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