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You're not firing into CC. Let me re-iterate:

You aren't selecting a target. You're merely finding what units fall within the fire zone- and if you read the FAQ, the only reason they give for you not firing into combat if your units are covered as well is that only Skaven can fire when they might hit their own units. That's it. Nowhere do they say the very easy 'You can't shoot into melee'. They just say that CDs can't fire when they might hit their own troops. Thus, if you have no chance of hitting your own units, there is nothing at all preventing you from using a Blunderbuss to fire into melee- as long as the ONLY units under the template are enemy.

If there's no chance of hitting their own units, there's nothing stopping you from firing.

Think of it this way: What If my shot, aimed at another regiment, happened to clip the rear rank of a unit in combat? What then? Am I not allowed to fire because of that?

But, yes, I suppose it isn't really clear, and we could debate all day for nothing. Way to go, GW

Interesting.

Regardless, that tactic is out there if you want to use it and that's the way you read it. I'll add a disclaimer to it.

Sure, you can shoot. The Blunderbuss doesn't specify a target unit, so you can fire just for the hell of it if you like.

Ah, what the heck. I see the ruling on breath weapons, and this seems similar. I'll remove the paragraph entirely.

They're very powerful troops. However, their effectiveness is multiplied exponentially when combined with an Earthshaker. Overall, you want to keep them out of combat, though- they're much better at shooting than melee.

Almost done with the Hobgob entry. It will be up soon.

TACTICS: HOBGOBLINS

Hobgoblins. Compared to the Chaos Dwarfs, they’re relatively fast, relatively strong, easily hurt, and cowardly. One thing, however, that is not relative is their low cost. They’re cheap compared to EVERYTHING. And this gives them such wonderful roles when paired with the expensive Chaos Dwarfs. Let’s go into some detail about the differences:

1. They’re fast(er). While M4 doesn’t seem great, it allows them to maneuver and a much better rate than CDs. However, the biggest advantage is in charging. Whereas a CD unit might not be able to charge the enemy due to the pathetic M3, a Hobgob unit can charge any infantry that can charge it. This means that you can actually go on the offensive with the blighters, and be able to maneuver at close range. It’s a big advantage.

2. They’re strong(er). S3 isn’t great, but do remember that it is the same S as the Chaos Dwarfs- which cost 4½ times more. So, for the same cost, you get 4.5 times(!) the firepower of the average CD. This means that whereas CDs will be used as an anchor, easily defending against attacks with their T4 and 3+ save, Hobgoblins are much more suited to going offensively to attack enemy infantry. We’ll get to this in a moment.

3. They’re less tough(er? Nahhh). T3 and no armor means they drop like flies when hit. Coupled with #2, this means you have a powerful unit that must be protected from enemy fire. However, this is exactly the opposite of what we’re going to do.

4. They’re cowardly. With Ld6, you need to keep them close to a unit with Banner of Slavery at all times. At Ld6, there is a 41.7% chance of the unit fleeing. With a re-roll, this changes to 66%. This is a huge bonus.

5. They’re cheap. At 2pts per model, you can very affordably field several large units for the price of a small unit of CDs- and I guarantee those Hobgobs will be more effective.

Now, we must look at equipment. We have bows, light armor, shields, and wolves to choose from. Wolves will be for another article, but the others I can do here.

Bows can be useful. They aren’t the pathetically useless shortbows of Goblins, but they aren’t as good as Crossbows or Handguns. So why use them? Because, quite simply, they’re cheap and we have no other choice.

CDs lack midrange missile troops. The only missile options are Blunderbussiers, which are short-ranged, and the Hobgobs. Hobgoblin bows are weak, inaccurate at BS3, and unlikely to kill much. However, they’re the only missile troops that can reach out to more than 12”, and they’re cheap, so they should be a serious consideration for any CD army.

For bowmen, you have two roles. The first is light harassment fire- take ten, put them in a line, and find somewhere in your battle line to stuff ‘em where they can annoy infantry blocks and cavalry- not too shabby for a 50-point unit. The other use is for massed ranged fire. Get 20 or more, put them in two ranks, find a hill, and spam anyone who comes near. This can be very effective in actually doing damage- again, a unit of 20 is very cheap (100pts), but if that unit of 20 fires on a unit of Empire Halberdiers 24” away they’ll get 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, and 2.77 kills. Although that is only a meager 13.85 points, seeing as that is 1/7 of the shooting units’ cost from one round of shooting, I think that’s pretty good- especially for Hobgoblins, whose uselessness is legendary.

Now, let’s look at the armor options. If you have a choice between shields and armor, go for the shields. However, it is most effective to use them both in concert- in melee, it grants a 4+ save, doubling their survivability for double the cost.

“Ross, why do that? By using unarmored troops, we get double the number of attacks for the same cost!” True. However, Hobgoblins will not win a fight by getting kills- they win a fight by static combat resolution. Thus, you need ranks, a standard, a flanking unit to deny their ranks and hopefully outnumbering. However, despite an increased likelihood of outnumbering the enemy, having a big unit of naked hobbos will hardly get any more kills, and will get slaughtered in enormous quantities such that your opponent might win the fight despite your ranks and flanking. On top of this, an enormous unit will be much harder to maneuver and get into combat- especially when your Move is a paltry 4.

So, similar to the ranged Hobgobs, there are two roles for CC Hobgoblins- meatshield and melee.

The meatshield Hobgoblin is essentially a naked hobbo (no armor). Take a unit of ten (for 20pts) and set them up to screen from missile fire, block your flanks, or die horribly so that your CDs can be a little safer. I got a small gem from Cornixt’s website (Obsidian Halls) that had in turn been adapted from a quote by an O&G player- ‘Think of them not as individual troops- think of them more as 2pt ‘extra wound’ upgrades for a Chaos Dwarf Warrior.” While this analogy isn’t exactly accurate (it’s another wound at T3 with no armor save…) the basic premise is correct. Hobgoblins are meant to die instead of your Chaos Dwarfs, and if the CDs make it into combat unharmed then the Hobbos have made their points back.

The other role is as a light/medium melee unit. By using a standard, full ranks, and both armor upgrades, you get a unit that is cheap enough to be a diversion, support or flanking unit, but also tough enough to act (in a very limited fashion) on its’ own. This unit will not be breaking enemy units, but my maximizing CR and survivability you ensure that the enemy unit will not win combat by a large margin- and by staying near the General and/or a Banner of Slavery you can be certain they will not flee. However, they can win combats- either with help or as help. By this, I mean that the support of a unit of Bull Centaurs or Wolf Riders into the enemy flank will be enough for you to win the fight- but also, since the Hobgobs are so damn cheap, you can use them in concert with a CD unit to flank the enemy and win with ease. Thus, they are a melee unit that is cheap, but by supporting other units can break and route even the toughest of infantry.

Numbers are up to you. A large unit of meatshields is hard to get into position, and might break, leaving quite a bit exposed. On the other hand, a small unit may be blown away before the CDs can get into melee. Likewise, while a large unit of melee Hobbos is likely to get the outnumbering bonus, it's unwieldy and hard to get into position. Generally, I use 10 naked hobbos for a meatshield unit, and 20 for a melee unit- but everyone has their preference.

Command is the last thing I will discuss. I usually use just a Standard for a unit of melee Hobgobs, or no command for a screen unit. The reasoning is simple- the other upgrades aren’t worth their points. Why tack on a 30pt command for a unit that costs only 80pts? The standard is only worth it because the Hobgobs need all the static combat resolution they can get. Thus, 10pts for +1 CR is a steal. However, ties are infrequent, and since this unit will rarely need the +1 for rallying (Banner of Slavery gives you a 2/3 chance at Ld6 anyway), the musician is fairly useless. The champion isn’t effective because of his high cost relative to his stats, but also because an enemy unit can challenge him and overkill him for easy CR. While this tactic does work for CDs, which are much tougher, Hobgobs just don’t have the same reliance. It’s better for the unit to lose four troops, barely lose the combat and stay in the fight than it is for the champion to get overkilled and lose the fight by a large margin.

And this finishes up the Hobgoblins article. Everyone uses theirs differently, so please tell me your uses and thoughts on the matter. Wolf Riders will not be next (because of the time it will take to compile everything), but I think I might do one of the pieces of artillery.

Orc Boyz are more expensive and easier to kill than Hobgobs with armor and shields. Despite their greater power, S4 in the first round of combat only is not enough to compensate for their vulnerability. They aren't a good middleweight unit because once the first round of combat is over, they have miniscule staying power, resorting to S3 and having very little protection. True, they can do damage on the charge- but if they are the ones that get hit, they will die. Simple as that.

10 S3 hits against armored Hobbos will get 5 wounds and 2.5 kills. That's 10pts of damage.
10 S3 hits against Orcs with light armor will get 3.33 wounds and 2.77 kills. That's 13.85 points of damage.

You say that I'll lose outnumbering and a rank because I'll get shot up. Well, there's an equal likelihood that I can do the same to my opponent, so that argument doesn't hold up. The fact remains that Hobgobs, even with armor, are one of the cheapest infantry units in the game, meaning that in any sort of fair test (one which uses equal points on both sides) the Hobgobs will almost always have outnumbering.

As I said in the article, naked hobgobs as melee troops are nearly useless because they die so easily your opponent gets a whole bunch of free kills- and thus free CR.

If the enemy would get 2 kills against armored hobgobs, that's 4 kills against unarmored ones- which easily makes up for the possible loss of rank bonus and possible loss of outnumbering of the armored ones.

As I said in the article, Hobgobs will not win fights on their own. You need them to be in a combat with a supporting unit. Thus, even if they flee, the opponent won't capture the standard unless your secondary unit flees as well.

Let's take a look. We have a block of 25 (5x5) armored Hobgobs with standard against 20 (5x4) Empire Spearmen with standard (both roughly equal points).

So, the Hobgobs charge, and hit first. They get 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.04 kills.

8.96 Spearmen strike back. 8.96 attacks, 4.48 hits, 2.24 wounds, 1.12 kills.

Hobgobs have outnumbering and still three full ranks, Spearmen lost one rank. Thus, CR for Hobgobs is 5.04, and CR for Spearmen is 3.12. Hobgobs win by 2.

Now let's do the same thing, only using a unit of 55 naked hobgobs, arranged 10x5. Oops, because of the tiny frontage of the Spearmen, only 7 of those guys can attack. So, hobgobs get the charge somehow despite their enormous, unwieldy unit size, and get 7 attacks.

7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.46 kills.

Spearmen have 8.54 attacks. They get 4.27 hits, 2.135 kills.

Hobgobs have outnumbering and full ranks. Spearmen have lost a rank, but have a standard. Thus, the Hobgobs have 5.46 CR, and the Spearmen have 5.135 CR. The Hobgobs win by roughly .33.

So, the naked hobgobs won by a very narrow margin, and due to the enormous unit size will be nearly impossible to get into combat without being flanked, shot up, or simply avoided. No thanks.

Yes, if you want, you can get a unit with outnumbering and ranks for 60pts, but that unit won't kill anything, will take a large number of casualties in return, and won't win the combat.

Thanks. I'm not sure what to do next, any suggestions?

Sounds like a plan. I'll keep going with the greenskins.

I think I'm going to wait on the Wolf Riders, however- I'll stick with the infantry for now as I collect all my thoughts into a coherent [readable] form. The Wolf Riders by far require the most tactics to use.

Metro, 80 Hobgobs will take twice as many wounds, and thus the enemy gets double CR. I even gave you an example where the Hobbos without armor failed compared to the ones with armor. I then backed it up with the logic that a unit of 80 is much more difficult to maneuver than a unit of 40.

What are you missing? How can you say 80 are always better than 40 when I proved that's not true?

You stated that Hobgobs without armor are ALWAYS better than those with armor. This I disproved. See my example.

This is a whole other can of worms. The examples you gave me all featured a Hobgob unit of double the size for the same cost. Yes, you can break it down into two units. But we cannot reliably calculate their effectiveness in comparison to the armored Hobgobs.

Not necessarily. The standard (which is only 100 VP by the way) is only captured if the winning unit pursues. If two units are in combat and only one flees, the standard will not be captured.

I never stated that they were to be used like Dwarfs. In fact, I stated the opposite- that they must be supported with other units or they most likely can not win.

As I've already shown, armored Hobgobs perform better than naked Hobbos in various situations. Therefore, I will promote useful units with useful tactics.

As I've already shown, armored Hobgobs perform better than naked Hobbos in various situations. Therefore, I'd say the armored ones are equally or more useful.

I've seen no hard evidence for armored hobgoblins being less effective than armored ones. A standard is your choice. But for the troops themselves, there are a multitude of reasons to take armored Hobgoblins.

Please provide some sort of proof for your statements that armored hobgoblins are useless. I've already provided proof to the contrary.

Lastly, I'd like to re-iterate that Hobgoblins with armor are essentially Empire troops, and since Empire troops, when used correctly, can be effective, there is no reason for armored hobgoblins not to be.

Ah. A very good point.

However, by compensation the individual troops are a point less. This frees up points for other troops that can support them.

The detachment system is useful, but it can be easily imitated through use of the correct tactics.

That's generally how I feel. The only difference for me is that I find Hobbo bowfire useful as it is the only way for CDs to have 24" ranged infantry, and it doesn't cost a special slot like Orcs- and don't the Orcs cost a bit more?

Okay, next up for tactics will be the other Greenskins. I don't think that there's too much to them that they can't be fit into one article.

But I'm not sure Choppas are worth it on a ranged unit. T4 is nice, but I'm not sure that it offsets the higher cost (read: less shooting).

I have. They cost one more point, and are thuss less effective at shooting.

Twice as many units that die twice as fast. The more expensive ones take damage half as quickly, as give less CR to your opponent for each kill.

My example showed that more often than not, in the situation presented Hobbos with armor are the more effective choice. This directly counters your statement that unarmored hobbos are always better than armored ones.

There is no way to test the efficiency of one unit of 20 armored versus two units of 20 unarmored. Thus I went with the only logical explanation. You can debate all you like, but you will not convince anyone without proof- which you cannot provide in the situation you give.

Twice as many units that take damage twice as quickly, and give your opponent twice as much CR. Is having two piles of dog crap twice as good a  meal as a single piece of steak?

They will not break 100% of the time guaranteed. Thus your statement has no backing. As I illustrated, there are ways to prevent the enemy from capturing the standard.

1. Hobgoblins are cheaper than Dwarfs. This makes them efficient for a tarpit melee unit.

2. Do the math. Against S3, being T3 4+ save is better than T4 6+ save.

What are you talking about? I kept the points values between the armored and unarmored hobgobs equal. I also kept their costs equal to that of their enemy. I have proven that if I have half as many of the model that costs twice as much, they're more effective.

I have acknowledged this. I have also pointed out that not only are my troops twice as hard to kill, but they also take half as much CR damage. I even gave you an example showing how having double the numbers did not offset the CR loss.

They're cheaper than Dwarfs, and faster too. Those alone are reasons to field them.

Are you seriously telling me that just because something is the cheapest option, it is a very good one?

He's using bold. It's not shouting, it's emphasizing a point.

As I said before, Arrer Boyz are more expensive and easier to kill.

You have so far produced no proof at all for your claims and accusations. If you are not willing to provide proof, then this seems to me to be flaming rather than discussion.

Absolutely. Thank you for a very good clarification, Border Reiver.

By the way, this is not dead. I've just been very busy with schoolwork. I should make an update on all the greenskins within a week.

But with the points difference, they're roughly equal.

Schoolwork is being... problematic. I promise that I won't let this thread die

Right then, I know you’ve been expecting the O&G stuff, but I had an attack of ‘What the hell’ (as well as an attack of ‘Why the hell hasn’t Joe given the army book back?’), so this article is going to be on a different thing:

TACTICS: WOLF RIDERS

Wolf riders fulfill a single role within the CD army- light, cheap Fast Cavalry. 11 points apiece is some of the cheapest cavalry in the game, and while they won’t be racking up the kills they’re still useful for the cost. So, let’s take a look at those roles:

-Harassment
-Screening
-Pursuit
-Bait
-PITA
-Surprise!

So, first we have unit size. The major weakness is the minimum unit size of 10- this means that the cheapest unit you can field will be 110. I can’t think of a reason to take any more than this, so you should really stick with 10. None of the functions of fast cavalry require large numbers, and if you really want a bunch of them you can just use two units. So, on to tactics.

Harassment is one of the easiest roles to use. You want to deploy them away from enemy missile troops or they’re going to die- in this case, Earthshakers are wonderful for being able to prevent enemy missile troops from firing (and, of course, for killing them off in the process). The idea of harassment is to weaken enemy units before an attack. I recommend bows for this purpose- it is difficult to attack an enemy unit in melee and avoid losing the hobbos. So you run up, send some arrows into them, and then run away. With 10 firing, you’ve got 10 shots, 3.33 hits, around one and a half kills against Empire troops- not very good, but since he can’t do anything about it you’re basically getting some free kills. The effect is more psychological than anything else- your opponent is most likely going to try to do something about the vultures picking off his wonderful rank bonuses. In this way, you can control his maneuvers- and once you have battlefield control the game is yours.

Next we have screening. Quite simply, screening is the use of your very cheap Wolf Riders to prevent attacks against more valuable troops. However, this is not as easy as it seems. Chaos Dwarf Warriors, for example, are harder to kill and worth less than the Wolf Riders- so screening them is a bad idea. What you want to screen are things that you absolutely cannot afford to be killed- that last guy making up a rank in a Warrior unit, that full rank of Blunderbusses, a tempting target of Bull Centaurs, Earthshaker crew, Sorcerors, et cetera. But never, EVER screen with your expensive, frail Wolf Riders just to prevent a CD or two from dying. In this role, light armor and shield are good additions- 4+ save against shooting and 3+ in melee is not to be scoffed at, especially when the model bearing t is only 3pts and Fast Cavalry.

Pursuit. This is deceptively simple. The objective is to pair a 5x2 unit of Wolf Riders with a unit of Chaos Dwarfs (and, hopefully, another unit of hobbos to flank). The Chaos Dwarfs (and hobbos) break the enemy unit through static CR, and when the enemy unit flees, you then send out the Wolf Riders to butcher them. You need to be careful, however. As said before, a minimum-sized unit of Wolf Riders is 110pts, so if they don’t run down a good-sized enemy unit then your investment was wasted. Generally, a pursuit such as this will take three turns- one to fight the melee, one for the Wolf Riders to get right up to the enemy (to maximize chance of catching them), and then a third turn to run them down. In a pinch, this can be changed to two turns- but this still requires planning. However, all you need to do is run down one 300+ point unit (like, say, a big contingent of Chaos Warriors when you flank charge them), and the hobbos will have made their cost back three times over. You then have a turn or two left in the game to help out another combat or secure an objective.

Bait is buckets of fun. This is one of the classic roles of Fast Cavalry. Get right up to an enemy unit, and his choices are to charge the Wolf Riders or try and go around. If he tries to go around, then BAM! Flank charge! More likely, he’ll charge them- in which case you can flee as a charge reaction. With 3D6 flee distance, you will flee 10.5” on average- and an enemy who started 3” away from you with a Move of 4 has roughly a 5% chance of catching you. Think of that chance as averages- your unit cost 110pts, so 5% of that is 5.5 points, and therefore you spend about 5.5 points on each bait maneuver. Quite frugal if you ask me. Since you’re using Fast Cavalry, they can immediately rally after they flee, and you will have strung the enemy on a merry little chase which you can immediately turn back from. His unit, on the other hand, may require several turns to get back into the action- or might be in a perfect place for you to charge. An easy method for even more hilarity is to do this to Frenzied troops. They charge, you flee, they charge, you flee, you can even do this till you run off the table- you will lose 110pts, they will likely lose quite a bit more with such troops as Witch Elves or similar. All in all, this is one of the best uses of Wolf Riders.

The next function of the humble Wolf Rider is being a Pain In The Ass. This is one of the more vague uses, but it nonetheless is a very specific goal. The premise is simple- you want to get into the opponent’s field, where you can wreak havoc. Kill war machine crew. Beat up spellcasters. Get rear charges against enemy infantry. That sort of thing. This can be combined with Pursuit with ease. All you have to do is set up your pursuit so that it takes you past the enemy line and behind his troops. From there, you’re free. This tactic is best when your opponent uses the Hard Center or Refused Flank tactics- with the former, you can break through a weak flank and then charge his center from his rear, and with the latter you can break through the refused flank in question and then catch the enemy in a pincer between your hard-as-nails infantry and the Wolf Riders. I doubt there’s a unit in the game that can win that fight- no static CR means that all you have to do is initiate a challenge with your CDW Champion, and either his champion sits out or he gets at most 5 CR. With outnumbering, ranks, rear charge, and a standard on your side victory is assured.

Finally, we have Surprise!, as suggested by Uzkul Werit. The objective of this is simple- the Wolf Riders don't cease being Fast Cavalry when they have a Bull Centaur Hero with them, so you take a unit of Wolf Riders with a BCH and get them into a good charge position. Then, the BCH can slam into combat like a rocket, and the hobbos can go elsewhere and do what they like. In this way, the Wolf Riders act as a transport for the very lethal BCH- and since you've got nothing to lose, it's a very useful trick.

Command is the next topic. For me, this is simple- none of the command models are worth it, save Musicians. We don’t need an extra attack, we don’t need extra CR, but we certainly need better rallying- the low Ld of a Hobgob won't cut it, but just +1 Ld for a Ld6 unit is a massive boost.

In my last bit I’d like to talk about weaknesses. As has been said before, enemy missile troops are your main Thing To Avoid™. In addition, though, you must be wary of enemy cavalry. Wolf Riders cannot win a fight against enemy cavalry- missile cavalry like Pistoliers will shoot you up (and your bows are near-useless against them), and heavier cavalry will charge you. There’s not much you can do to counter this- Earthshakers are nice for slowing them, and Bolt Throwers can put sizable holes in their ranks, but neither will assuredly keep them away. This means that as a general you must be constantly alert for such threats. The best thing to do is to remove cavalry from the equation. Tie them up in melee, bait them with other troops, shoot them with BBs, and otherwise make them useless to your opponent for the purpose of killing your cavalry. In fact, if you can break them, you can even pull a pursuit maneuver on him and run them down. Nothing is more degrading than watching your heavily armored Knights get slaughtered by a bunch of Hobgoblins.

Well, that’s it for now. If anyone has stuff to add I’d be happy to revise- after all, your opinions are just as valid as mine.

Bows are pretty useless. You are correct. However, as I said in the main body the real purpose is mostly psychological- you can hit his units without fear of retribution. Also note that all it takes is one kill against a 20-man unit to take off a rank bonus. However, in any other role bows just aren't worth the price or game-time spent.

Generally, if you're using Wolf Riders correctly you shouldn't flee. If they are severely damaged in combat (and so they flee), then they probably aren't going to be much worth anyway.

That is an excellent point about Bull Centaur Heroes. I will add that into the article.

Metro, as I have already pointed out, bows are nearly useless. However, I have given a situation in which they are, in fact, useful- when you cannot afford to become stuck in combat, but where just a single kill will make a large difference. In addition, every point you have made against the tactics article has been refuted, yet you still insist on ridiculous ideas that contradict math and logic (The armor/no armor hobgoblin debate, where you insisted that 2 cheap is better than 1 expensive even after I mathematically proved that the armored ones are better). If you should like to give me some reasoning behind your statements that stands up to general scrutiny, I will be more than happy to add them to the articles.

However, having run some calculations and a re-read of the BRB, I have also come to the conclusion that Musicians are useful in such a unit. Editing now.