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This is my army list so far, because I like so much in the CD list that I wanted, basically, some of everything:

Chaos Dwarf Lord - 404
Heavy Armor
Shield
Black Hammer of Hashut
Great Taurus

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Fire Magic

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Metal Magic

Chaos Dwarf Hero - 120
BSB
Armor of Gazrakh

Hobgoblin Hero - 62
Light Armor
Gauntlets of Bazhrakk

19 Chaos Dwarf Warriors (BSB goes here) - 251
Full Command
Banner of Slavery

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216
Blunderbusses

20 Hobgoblins - 110
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

19 Hobgoblins (Hobgob hero goes here) - 106
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

Death Rocket - 80

20 Sneaky Gits - 130
Full Command

2 Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers - 60

Earthshaker - 110

5 Bull Centaurs - 150
Heavy Armor
Full Command

Total - 1999

All comments appreciated.

Looks good save for a couple of  things. You have 5 heros. It's possible that my mind has escaped the grasp of hobgoblin heros and that they possibly don't count towards a slot, in this case please feel free to correct, as this news would be welcome even to me.

However, 4 heros max for 2k points is the stipulation I believe.

1 Lord, 2 Level 2 Sorcs, 1 CD hero.

The Hobgoblin makes it a fifth.



Two: You have too few units that I can see that are designated as Chaos Dwarf. At least 3 are required in a 2k list for core. (memory again here could be fuzzy, so again, feel free to correct if I am wrong. I will not take insult I assure you)

Three Chaos Dwarf Core units are needed in 2000pts and Hobgoblin Heros still take up a slot. It's Hobgoblin Core units that don't take up a slot.

Whoops...

Hmm. I think I'll take out the Sneaky Gits and the Hero (my bud needs more bowmen anyway) and replace them with some more BBs.

Damn it, now I need more Skull Pass Thunderers, and I'm fresh out.

Okay, new list:

Chaos Dwarf Lord - 404
Heavy Armor
Shield
Black Hammer of Hashut
Great Taurus

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Fire Magic

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Metal Magic

Chaos Dwarf Hero - 120
BSB
Armor of Gazrakh

19 Chaos Dwarf Warriors (BSB goes here) - 251
Full Command
Banner of Slavery

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216
Blunderbusses

15 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 180
Blunderbusses

20 Hobgoblins - 110
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

20 Hobgoblins - 110
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

Death Rocket - 80

2 Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers - 60

Earthshaker - 110

5 Bull Centaurs - 150
Heavy Armor
Full Command

Total - 1992

Now I need to know what to do with the remaining 8 points, how I can fit some Wolf Riders in there, and hopefully how to get 3 more Blunderbusses, since I'd like the two units to be equal.

Think I should remove the Bull Centaur command?

What you really should do is drop the armor, commands and such off the Hobgoblins.  They will give you an outnumber bonus and 3 ranks for 40 points... if you can get a charge with a slave and a warrior unit, you'll have tons of static combat resolution there.

If you do that then you get the wolfriders.  I'm guessing that you took armored hobgoblins for WYSIWYG skull pass purposes, but I always run my slaves around the board naked now.

-LK

indeed the best armor for hobgoblins is more hobgoblins...

I agree. I'd drop the champion and if you wanted the standard for the hobgobos. I'm not sure if you need the champion for the BC. You also don't have any dispel scrolls; you should have at least 2 for a 2000pt game (put one on each sorcerer to hedge your chances). I also like the Armor of the Furnace for a mounted CD lord. Gives him a +2 save against shooting and a +1 save in CC. And throws in a +5 WS for good measure. I think you can lower one of the BB from 18 to 15. Also, if you drop the champion from the BC, add another. I usually go for 6. Oh and why not throw the sword of might on your BSB? I thinks its 15 points, and it gives you S5 then.

Cheers,
Erik

hobgoblins do not win combat at all...
they distract and break ranks...
and giving them an overpriced banner is like throwing VP down a well...
if you want to win combat cheaply get orcs...

your hobgoblin article should be humuorous to say the least...

Hobgoblins can, and do win combats. Especially if you have a unit with a hero in it. Also especially if you use the Lore of Death to have them Cause Fear. I have enough experience against Empire, Skaven, and other armies with Str 3 Toughness 3, the same as hobgoblins, to say that with a strong stance on the matter. Especially since I play Vampire Counts, an army that I design to be notoriously Skeleton heavy in several large blocks of 30 each. Lahmians in fact. Not blood Dragons, Not Von Carstein, Lahmians. And my record out of 50+ games is only 2 losses. No ties. So I think I know of what I speak on the matter. Of course, you will just come out and say I am beyond help and disagree with me on the matter entirely...but I am not saying this for your benefit. I know my own personal win record in games to know that my level of tactical knowledge suffices to carry me through.

I am stating this so I can hopefully abolish a view that I feel is personally wrong, that may spread.

The difference with hobgoblins is their low leadership, and that is their weakness. If they are 12 inches within the general, great. Face it, there are not alot of high strength units out there. With hobgoblins, tactics are essential. Not only that, but you can outnumber your opponent quite a great deal with hobgoblins. Naked or no. Against high point armies like the High Elves, this is great. As it allows us to use swarm tactics. Chaos Especially if they go Chosen Heavy. We can descend down on Chaos, with the correct tactics, like a veritable tide of death.

You need to pick and choose your targets, and send your Chaos Dwarf Warriors against the stronger stuff while the hobgoblins pick off weaker units. If they are maximized in armor, they can do this better for Static Combat resolution. And that is going to be key. Any sane and knowledgeable veteran is not going to send in hobgoblins against chosen mounted chaos knights. However, we can use them to flank, rear attack, and generally otherwise use various tactics to turn the side towards our favor with them while the Chaos Dwarf Masters hold up the front line.

Hobgoblins are sneaky, devious, cowardly greenskins. Use them to reflect that, and you start to understand the tactics behind them.

I've had enough combats be won with VC and only Skeletons against opponents that just from math alone should say I should lose time and time again. But due to tactics I can pull it off. And I'm talking just a basic unit of skeletons fully armored, and massively outnumbered on my end in the combat due to loss of rank and file members. Hand weapon, Light Armor, Shield. 4+ Save. Not something to scoff at when a skeleton can't hit it's way out of a wet paper bag. It's a bog pit. Plain and simple.

As I stated, the only difference is hobgoblins don't cause fear. That can be remedied with the lore of death.


So to sum up my feelings. Tactics make the unit more then any other factor. Use them wrong, and their worthless. This goes for our Chaos Dwarfs, as well as any other units.  Use them correctly, and they are invaluable. Especially since you can have so darn bloody many of them.

I don't care how good your math is. Don't care how good probability is. Don't even care how good the stats on a model are. Stats don't win Wars. Tactics and Strategy do. Plain and simple. If you charge headlong into combat with a unit that you know is going to die before you even roll the dice, you're doing something wrong.

A Good general knows how to take what he has, and maximize the efficacy of it to the foremost capability. Hobgoblins are cheap for what they can do, and though they may be throwaway units, we can take ALOT of them. This allows us to hold the Phalanx, and out Maneuver our opponents quite a great deal.

Play against a skaven horde army. You'll see how well slaves work. I've seen a single unit of skaven slaves, weak, pathetic can't win for nothing skaven slaves....completely DESTROY a wood elf army all by itself.

There is always a way to make something worthwhile. Always.

Give hobgobs armor and shields if you want, but in a tournament situation, a banner is 100 points when captured, and those hobgobbos will give it up. 20 is a lame number of hobgobs as well, take 10 or 25+. 20 wont get you an outnumber, and that is much cheaper bought than a banner for the same +1.

I had 30 hogobs break a unit of wardancers, treekin, and a treeman in one game, and they did it naked without a banner, thanks to a hobgob hero, dice, and tactics.

Armored skeletons are a whole different ball of wax Drac.. the armor is worth it because you can summon more and they get the armor for free, and they get the outnumber with fear causer if you ever win combat by just 1.

Not disagreeing on the skeleton bit. I fully realize we can get them back and that is what I love about them. Though I am usually far more offensive then defensive with my Vampire counts. Still, there is a correlation between the two in my example.

1: Take large Blocks. We can maximize attacks if we go 7 wide. Though I myself usually go 5 wide. I'll experiment with those tactics later. If we have fear on the unit and they are large and win combat. Boom, auto break right there. Just like Skeletons. Only thing is we can't get them back as you stated. But again, they're a throwaway unit. Stick what you want on em equipment wise and give em a go.
2: Have them hold by maxing armor if that is your tactical choice for the battle.

Banner doesn't have to be taken. You don't lose a banner if you never have it. And my mindset is usually to have goblins on the flanks. Most players that I play against know Hobgoblins are cheap and worthless...so they don't go after them. They go after the meat of my army, the Chaos Dwarfs. Which allows me to hit them in the flanks as they concentrate on them instead.

Also, we can make a unit of hobgoblins cause fear, and if we want, terror. Sounds kind of funny when you think about it, but yeah. We can do it.


As you stated, they can be effective. Just tactics and if you want insurance, place a hobgoblin hero in them.

I still have to give you kudos for that one model man. He's just awesome.

Ok, your army looks good. But I still think some of the items should be changed up. If you drop the banner of slavery, you can put 2 standards on your blunderbusses, and then throw a sword of might on your BSB. I really think your BB should each have a standard. Or just replace the banner of slavery for the 25pt war banner. Perhaps you could make one of your sorcerers the generals to boost the goblins Ld?

Good list though!
Erik

im not telling you not to use them...
im telling you that you are spending twice what they are worth...
and that nearly every option in the list is better than them...

no... your BSB re rolls break tests... your banner re rolls psych tests...
no... they are not the same thing... Mr. Tactics...

Orcs... even without shields... are much more effective cheap melee blocks...
hobgoblins are not melee blocks at all...

combined with the points wasted on the hobgoblin toys the 25 point could be a 25 strong orc unit...

Orcs are Special, and you've only used 2 special slots so it's not like you're going to have to drop anything to take them.  They are only 1pt more than your tooled up HGs but their T4 and S4 in the first turn makes tham much more flexible.  The units are a bit large to be used as you want to.  Are these meant to be used in conjunction with Blunderbuss units?  You seem to have too many soft units, for anvil-hammer tactics you need a unit that won't flee from heavy cavalry, and only your plain warriors unit has a good chance of that.  A good general will take this army apart piece by piece and you don't have much to stop him.  The tactics you suggest would work better with small units of GW warriors and leave the static res to larger HW/S warriors.

1.for me I find that a unit of 10 BCs is better because a unit againts a blog of men with standerd,3 ranks and outnumber and you also have  to add kills so around 5 CR. while a unit of 10 with full command with heavy armour with and great wep will kill way easyer and only have to kill around 3 gusy to win.

2.why not 10? if you have 5 you need to kill 3 to cause a panic test where you would need 6 if you had a unit of 10.

3.a unit with 10,full command and a BC lord will pack a puch!

Did the math in my head - HGs are slightly better against receiving S3 and S4 attacks in combat.  Orcs are better against S5 and S6, and all shooting/magic.  S7+ makes no difference between the two.  Orcs are wider but get S4 in the first turn

I did it purely on the number of models, I never do calculations based on points lost per turn.

I ran the stats again, the difference is pretty negligable for combat, <3% difference (maybe 1 model in 36 attacks).  Shooting-wise, Orcs are a little better, but most significantly at S5 (1 model in 12 hits), so still not that much.  A more detailed analysis to take into account the choppa, although I expect a whole extra rank for the CR (assuming you aren't already at maximum) would still be better.

So, on the whole, 25 HGs tooled up is probably a bit better than 20 Orcs with no upgrades.  So you're right.  I think I'd prefer the Orcs still, just because they can be used offensively and don't panic so much out of range of the general.  Plus I have the models already.

I'm not that convinced by your battleplan.  Charging in the sides is best done by small hard(ish) hitting units.  

Orc Big 'Uns with two choppas are 2pts cheaper than Black Orcs so you could consider them.

If you have some points left over, put a sword of might on your BSB, and if not, perhaps the armor of the furnace on your Lord. Actually I've forgotten, does the +5 ward save on a lord also transfer to his mount also?

Cheers,
Erik