CDO Forums

It's probably better to think of them as "Corrupted Dwarfs" rather than "Chaos Dwarfs".
Chaos Dwarf society is anything but Chaotic, they have a highly ordered, highly structured early industrial society.
And Hashut himself is only a Chaos God in the same way as Khaine or the Great Horned Rat is a Chaos God.  He's certainly not in the same camp as the big four Chaos Gods.

Khaine and Malal?

It's impossible to really ascertain the "chaoticness" of CD without really understanding more about Hashut himself.
Since GW have never really clarified what Hashut is vis-a-vis the other Gods it is difficult to really know how Chaotic his followers would be.

Dark Elves are probably the only race in Warhammer that can really be considered evil, and possibly not even then.
I've certainly never thought of Chaos as being evil, it's just a different way of survival (and if a champion manages to actually achieve the immortality of Demonhood, arguably a better way).

At the risk of starting a flame war, I don't consider slavery evil.  Numerous societies throughout history have practised it, and while it may be morally indefensible through modern eyes, that doesn't necessarily make the societies that practised it "evil".
Callous and indifferent, perhaps, but not evil.

Although, again, I guess that just really boils down to a battle of semantics over what the word evil means.

I will define my moral code as I see fit.
My point was that it is very difficult to judge the past through modern eyes, as moral values are things that change over time.
There are many things which were considered moral in the past which are not now, and conversely many things that are considered immoral now that were not in the past.
Slavery is one example of that.

At any rate since Chaotic and evil aren't really the same thing it kind of feels like debating what is or is not evil is actually taking the thread off topic.

I think we're kind of hijacking the thread a bit

If you want to continue talking about it you should probably PM me.
Either that or start a separate thread (and then you and I can take bets on how long it will be until it gets locked).

Fine then, we'll let the matter drop.
It's been a pleasure.

That is the point I was trying to make.
I'm genuinely embarrassed to admit that you actually articulated it better than I did myself...

Sigmar was a hard living, hard fighting Barbarian who laid the smack down on anyone who refused to join his Empire.
I don't think "love" is quite the right word.  Nationalism or unity might be more appropriate.

I've always thought of Hashut as being the embodiment of uncontrolled technological and industrial "progress", free of the bonds of tradition or compassion.
Kind of like Blake's Dark Satanic Mills, or Fritz Leiber's Smoke Ghost.

Hmmm, thought this thread was locked.

Anyhow, as I'm not sure I replied to this yet:

IMO this question cannot be answered definitively using any current fluff.  So we all have our opinions, but until GW decides to redo the Chaos Dwarfs we will not be 100% clear.

My view is that "chaos" is too loose a term, as it has too many understandings.

Perhaps a better question would be 'do Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves chaotic?'  

In my fluff, the Chaos Dwarfs have gone down many dark paths, each and every time because their survival depended on it.  They could have chosen to be destroyed with their honour intact, or to slowly decline like the western Dwarfs, but instead they have done only what is was necessary to survive.

Daemon binding for instance is done in as scientific a way as possible, for only by attempting to maintain control can the Chaos Dwarfs hope to survive.  

So IMO only certain parts of the society are unstable,  but ruled with an iron discipline where possible.  So whilst in the main there is order pervading almost every aspect of their society they cannot really be described as ‘chaotic’ as a whole.  If there was no order anywhere they would be chaotic (and part of ‘chaos’).  Its an important difference in the warhammer world to the endless cycle of bloodshed that exists further north.

To answer the question ‘do chaos Dwarfs consider themselves chaos?’, I think the simple answer would be no, they wouldn’t consider themselves part of chaos.

They may try to control the raw magic of chaos, to use it and its followers as tools, but IMO they are not subservient to chaos.  In my fluff they can choose at any time to reject chaos in all its forms, to slay its followers and to cease trading entirely.  But to do so would mean their eventual destruction.

So they are in part controlling chaos, but the powers of chaos are also controlling them to a certain extent.  In my fluff their fate as a race is very strongly linked to Chaos, because ultimately Chaos is their greatest ally, but their greatest enemy as well.

Also, in my fluff the main reason they are called ‘Chaos’ Dwarfs is because of the common understanding of the word in the Warhammer world, and all it entails; dread, fear, hatred etc.  It being very important to inspire such emotions in their enemies to prevent attack/ bring victories/ control their empire etc.  Also to spite the western Dwarfs for their misplaced persecution.

A long time ago I did actually wonder whether 'Chaos' Dwarfs could infact be anti chaos?!!?  I.e. attempting to bring order to chaos by bringing it under their control (thereby attempting to end it).  Using the power of chaos as a weapon against itself, no matter the cost.  I had thoughts to weave the idea of Malal into all this, but it was far too tricky so I completely gave up on the idea.

@Wallacer
I go more with gIL, I always thought of Hashut as the god of greed and all the things that go with that; thirst for power, domination, seeking to improve wealth every way possible (technology/ slavery) etc.

Btw, incase anyone was curious, we put a general policy on slavery on CDO on the forum rules thread.

Oh, and I'm 'active' again now as a mod.  I may not be posting much, but I will do my mod duties.

Khaine, Sotek, Grungni, Gork, Mork, Verena, Morr, Taal, Rhya, Bogenhauer, Asuryan, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Ranald, Shallya, Stromfels, Manaan/Mathlann, Isha, Vaul, Adamnan-na-Brionha, Liadriel, Lileath, Kurnous, Morai-heg the Crone, Torothal, Ulric and possibly the Lady of the Lake.

Grimnir, Grugni and Valaya.  Who I guess might represent honour, workmanship and protection?  Hard to sum them up in one word as they are only specific to Dwarfs.

Or if we want to go further
Gazul, Smednir, Thungni and Morgrim
(Stone and Steel)

EDIT
@Wallacer
Was Vaul a god?

It's the old chicken and egg problem: Did the Gods create man or did man create the Gods?
(swap "man" for race of choice)

But where did the first egg come from?

So where did the first member of the first species come from?
(the one that would eventually result in the aforementioned chicken)

Interestingly in Manslayer, the latest Gotrek and Felix book (love 'em all), Malakai the slayer engineer refers to them as Dawi Zharr.

Its not that special...

(refering to cannons bound with Tzeentch sorcerers) "Makin' instruments o' Chaos out o' the purr wee things!  The villians!  I'll no hae it!  It's as bad as the Dawi Zharr and yon daemon gun!"

Manslayer p360 by Nathan Long (Released Oct 2007)

I hope when they do Warhammer Armies:  Chaos Dwarfs that Nathan Long does 'Kinslayer' or something.  Would be a great way to explore parts of our empire in greater depth.

If it was true i wouldnt of found it so amusing. But if it was true i would of still acted like it wasnt ture. So you will never know if its ture of not unless you live near me and know me.

@kera: You seem to fall out of your chair a lot. I suggest you start using FOCL for Falls Off Chair Laughing. I want credit for it

Also highly entertaining. Although i have found myself caught up in it......