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The arrows are a sort of perversion of the 8-pointed star. The Chaos Dwarfs aren't Chaos, although they're closely linked.

I'd recommend you make a skull, cut off the top of it, and attach lightning bolts like the top one here:

It might be interesting to have a ''clan'' of Chaos Dwarfs who have denied the way of Hashut and fled to the Chaos Wastes to follow one or all of the four Gods, but I think that can wait until after we have an army book. At the moment we don't even have a definitive basis, Big Hats/masks?, so I think it would get too crazy if we had all sorts of deviating ideas and traitors (I think any Chaos Dwarf with a Chaos star would be seen as a traitors to Hashut to any other Dawi-Zhar).
I think Skulls and arrows are definetly the way to go!

I'm working my army to be sort of divided between Hashut and chaos, (Sorcerer follows hashut, Lord follows Khorne) the fluff still needs work but chaos dwarves could always be corrupted by the power offered, like the dark elf cult of Slaanesh

"follower of the Dark Father."

I love that! Their worship of Hashut is definetly about pride, I think the Chaos Dwarfs would rather convert the 'good' Dwarfs to the ways of Hashut rather than taking vengance on them for being abandonded, of course they would never turn to Hashut so it always ends up the latter.
What can you do eh?

Who is that Zhardrach? I'd like to hear is speech.

I'm definately in the Chaos camp.  My CDs are based on mini chaos warriors! The helcannon had the star incorporated into it's wheels, although this could just hve been a gimmick for their business!!

The star is the mark of chaos undivided, of which there are 8 points which I think logically would equate to 8 gods.  The four major points (N,E,S,W) would probably represent the big four, so Hashut could be one of the four minor points, another being the horned rat (as the skaven are spawn of chaos are they not?).

who would the other 2 be?

But in said army book, behind the styalised flaming skull logo, you will find the 8 pointed star of chaos, not to mention the 'arrow' shapes addorned on their armour.  chaos dwarfs are chaos, whether they realise it or not is another matter!

I would hardly call a change in facial hair grooming mutation!

i thin he means the larger noses, tusts and ocasional bull bodys, hoves and changing into a giant flaming bull monster with wings

A ha that! I concur, although I was merely jesting!

the chaotic wording from D&D refers to the characters personality, if they are chaotic they are unruly, murderous etc

it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers. in fact chaos cultists and warriors are very orderly in what they do.

the great thing about warhammer and all of GW's universes, is that there are no good or evil, even though it seems lately it has been written that humans are good and the forces of chaos are evil, it does give both sides point of view.

its easier to see in the case of the horus heresy, where both sides seem to be acting under the cause of the good of mankind.

No one, (not even wallacer) is trying to justify slavery, or say it's OK but you are taking the debate way out of the context of the thread.  In the past, slavery brought us some of the wonders of the world (e.g. the pyramids) and pretty much all the great civilisations practised slavery at some point.  In-fact, you could probably say that in those times, without having the technology to do such things, the egyptians/romans/persians etc. used slavery to get things done and this was seen as acceptable for the time.  The warhammer world is in a similar state of pre-technology and IMHO, I don't believe the CD's would consider it evil at all (this is what the thread is about).

I agree with you that slavery in the modern day probably would be considered evil, however another thing that is considered evil is oppression, and along those lines, your last quote.  You can't force people to share your opinion and you shouldn't abuse them because theirs is different "if you don't share my opinion you are either stupid or insane".  While probably un-intentional, comments like this can cause upset.  This is supposed to be a friendly forum so please be nice!

So back on topic from now please!

Let me itterate again thommy, as it seems you only read what you want to.

Yes, slavery is evil in this day and age, no one is disputing that.  The point myself and wallacer are making is that in the ancient world it wasn't seen like that and WFB is based in an ancient world, so the CD's would not consider it evil which is what this thread is about.

I know you intended to say what you said, but I would hope you did not intend to upset/offend people.  Again, that's you just reading what you want to read.

And how are we justifying it, infact if you take the time to read the post:

Addmittedly, it was poor wording by me with the probably, it wasn't meant in the way you have taken it.  It's just a word I put in.  If it offended you then I apologise, as I meant no offence.  

However, I would let you know that you are definately offending me with the abrupt, abusive and 'holier than thou' manner of your responses to the last couple of threads.  That is how you are saying it, not what you are saying before you turn that round to make me some sort of Hitler fan.  And even though I attempted to bring this back on topic, you have just dragged it right back to where it was. A pointless arguement over a missunderstanding.

  This is an opinion whether it's right or not, it is an opinion.  You shouldn't be abusive to someone because theirs is different to yours, whether you agree with them or not.  That's what I was saying in my last post, not that slavery is Good.

So, I try again:

Is slavery in this day and age evil - Yes
Would the Chaos Dwarfs think that it is evil - I don't think they would, no.

lol look at you all with your whole slavery debate, yet you probably havent even considered whatslavery entailed in the ancient world, and how that has changed, even with democracy, into the working class today.

Only within the last 50 years have even lower class Europeans been given the freedom and opportunities to be able to do something other with their lives than toil away in dangerous jobs such as coal mining (something which still kills the older men of my town) or put into wars not through choice or conscription.

Is that any different to the slave class of Ancient china or Egypt? no.

Slavery in the past was the other option instead of genocide in many circumstances, and if you study ancient Egypt you will see a lot of slaves were treat in very high regards. Slavery does not nesiceraly mean being worked to death and locked up every night. I think the treatment by the africans by the americans, which was pretty bad by our standards (yet not compared to what the africans were doing to each other) was a lot worse than any other example over time, and obviously seen even more worse because in the time it was happening the general populations of many nations frowned on slavery.

now bringing this into the warhammer world is a completely different thing. There is no moral justification for plastic soldiers, or words in a book. They can do whatever thy want. Of course chaos dwarves wouldnt work if they didnt have fiery pits where slaves toiled all day digging out metal ores.

Does that make them evil? I cant see how. Good/Evil is a personal desicion, it cant be forced on you by someone else, unless you are in some form of moral slavery such as a hardcore religious school. Everyone is free to make up their own mind on the issue of morals no matter what anyone else thinks.

I wont be replying into this thread again, i have given in my first part some historical facts, and in the second part my own opinion. Anyone who tries to argue against my opinion is wasting their time, and anyone who tries to argue against the facts needs to do more in depth research.

@torn.

That's kind of what I was getting at.  While it can be considered evil in the real world now, in the fantasy world I'm not so sure.  CD's are not numerous enough to work their own forges, they need slaves for their society to function.  That is not necessarily evil in their eyes.

@Cornixt

Yep, that's pretty much what I was saying too.  Although it wouldn't matter what the Empire thinks of slavery, they would just consider CDs as evil anyway IMO.

Does Evil=Chaos though? you could argue that they are merely practising the worship of their god(s).  Many conflicts and much suffering in the past has been caused by religeous differences, could you call them evil for believing in different gods? Wether we prove/determine the CDs are evil or not, would this determine whether they consider themselves as chaos?

In my opinion, they do consider themselves as chaos, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, throughout the Warhammer Presents: book there are several icons depicting the 8 pointed star of chaos behind a flaming open topped skull.  Unequivical.

It's that sot of narrow minded pomposity that causes all the trouble in the world. "Your way is wrong, I don't care what you think, you should think like this etc etc". Do you not realise that this is wrong?

It's a theoretical debate about the point of view of IMAGINARY beings.  The fact that people think differently about this sort of thing is good.

All in all, you are being offensive deliberately, you keep this arguement going no matter how many times It's tried to be avoided and refuse to let this thread back on topic.  How many more CDO rules do you want to break?

I should imagine the chaotic ones do

Ahhh, now that is interesting. bill

well, to begin with there was the big bang that caused a hole lot o hydrogen attomes to come into exisance with that amount of energy behid them, the heat and preeasure then mutated these into other atoms, wich reacted together to form dust, stars and planets, on these the left other atomes, still super charged with energy combined to make the first simple lifeforms, single celled organism, when these reproduced they started to mutate to, know to us as evolutiion into more complex beings, that then continued to eveolve into dinosaurs, which ruled until 64 million years ago, but there eggs would have been mutating the whole time, eventualy resulting, from the offspring of these mutated offspring the egg for what we call a chicken today