CDO Forums

Sort of an obvious question in the light of the name debates (see Warseer) and various other background queries, but I'm wondering because of a banner I'm just in the middle of painting. Chaos Dwarfs have arrows all over their hats and armour, and various other Chaos symbols, but how appropriate is the eight-pointed star as a large device on a banner?

We know Chaos Dwarfs have provided Chaos forces with the Hellcannon, but that was a business agreement, not a show of support. Sure, they have some of the same aims as Chaos armies ("splat everyone") and their origin is connected to them, but they're obviously not a part of the same army, despite their name.

So should I go ahead with the star of Chaos on a banner, or do you think it doesn't work for Dawi'Zharr?

Yeah, that's what I thought. I have a couple of Chaos stars here and there, but I don't think it works on a banner - it makes them look like they're worshipping one of the four main Gods, and obviously they aren't.

Hmm...I've already used the rune of Hashut on a banner. Possibly a skull on this one, maybe?

I went with the broken skull variant that appears on a few banners in the end.

No, it's okay - I've got no trouble finding motifs. If you look at my army in my sig you'll see that the banners I use for my Chaos Dwarf units (specifically the blunderbusses) follow a certain pattern - a number of lightning bolts and a symbol underneath. So far I've used two bolts and the rune of Hashut, and the banner I did for the new unit has three bolts and I was wondering if the star of Chaos would work. After the replies to this thread I ended up using a skull instead.

Thanks, guys...I do know all that already, I just wanted to get some opinions before I painted something I thought I might regret

Khaine = Khorne...

No, I'm not interested in debating it, he just does. There's an old picture of Witch Elves with the Khorne symbol on their hats and they both like blood and killing and their names start with "Kh"

Can people actually read this thread before chiming in with the incredibly basic information?

I'm not exactly a newbie here, I just wanted some opinions on the use of Chaos iconography and whether it fits with Chaos Dwarfs. As Hammerhand has pointed out, the Hellcannon wheels have the Star of Chaos on them and I've seen the same icon repeated in other armies over the years. My gut instinct was "yeah, it's fine", but then I thought about it and decided to get more more input.

Anyway, the situation was long-ago resolved. My second blunderbuss unit not have a split skull on their banner, a traditional Chaos Dwarf icon.

Good spot! Page 32, right? The arrows are at odd lengths, so you can't spot it immediately, but behind the exact design I've used for the skull on my banner is the Star of Chaos. Weird coincidence.

I always think of the Chaos Dwarfs as incredibly ordered - in D&D terms, "Lawful Evil" rather than "Chaotic Evil". That seems to contradict the term "Chaos Dwarfs", but it's worth remembering that Warhammer doesn't follow the same concept of alignment as D&D - "Chaos" has its own specific meaning, related to, but separate from, the everyday use of the word.

Of course, the AD&D (and therefore the current version of D&D) alignments are more complex. You have the Good-Neutral-Evil axis (which represents pure selfishness and capacity for destructive actions) and the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis (which represents response to authority and society).

So, for example, an orc might be chaotic evil (no real concept of society, simply destroys for fun), a dark elf would be neutral evil (just evil for the sake of being evil, largely) and a chaos dwarf is lawful evil (total bastards, but within a strict hierarchy which makes them unswervingly loyal to their masters - Dawi'Zharr don't backstab their superiors).

But, as I've said, the alignment system from D&D doesn't really fit with Warhammer anyway. A mortal follower of Chaos would be chaotic evil, but a daemon (who cannot escape its place in the heirachy of its kind) would be lawful evil - even though both are followers of "Chaos". Plus there really isn't a lot of 'good' in the world - the equivalent of the Paladian character class (which is always Lawful Good) are monstrous oppressors of the peasant class of their own nation, after all.

I believe that's exactly what I said.

You don't think Chaos Dwarfs or Skaven are evil? Both have slavery as the basis of their entire society.

Those are two different points. The second is worth debating, the first isn't.

If you believe anyone can ever justify forcing another person (and their children, of course - in most historic systems of slavery, the children of slaves is a slave too) to labour against their will for the benefit of their "owners"...well...I think you should reconsider how you define your moral code.

But we're not talking about the past. We're talking about slavery in general, and where it stands in relation to our understanding of morality. It may have been acceptable in the past, and you're correct in that is isn't always easy to judge history through modern eyes, but slavery is what it is and I think you'd have to work very hard indeed to make anyone capable of rational thought in today's day and age think it's anything but utterly and unequivocally reprehensible.

No, I really have no desire to discuss this issue, since I'm of the opinion that there's nothing whatsoever to debate. Slavery is evil. Anyone who disagrees is insane or stupid. Pick whichever one you prefer.

Very good points skell

However, I believe you hit the nail squarely when you mentioned Chaos undivided being the worship of the four "main" Gods.  Who are the lesser gods? It's been brought up on this thread before, but you could argue that the Horned Rat is one and Hashut is another.  The gods are a manifestation of their people, an anthropomorphic personification (to quote a comic novel writing genius!).  

While totaly un-related, I love the way Terry Pratchet's gods work, i.e. they get more powerfull the more they are worshipped.  Think about it, to explain why people got ill and explain plague, the superstitious would have believed that there was a god of disease, to help them fight they would have prayed to the god of war, to explain things changing or things that happen without explanation they would attribute to the god of change and magic, and through the actions of the depraved and the pereverted, the god of pain and pleasure!  Over time, these gods got more worshippers and their power became as it is.  It fits in with Hashut being the "....the embodiment of the city, its deity and its master...".  The proximity of the chaos gate (and therefore the origin of the winds of magic), means the abundant magical energy makes this more possible.

Maybe a bull, or bovine idol was worshipped and suddenly the god manifested itself,  With so few worshippers in comparrison to the other gods, his power is not comparable.  He can't create daemons to walk the earth, but he does have power enough to alter his followers to his own image. Plus, as chaos dwarfs are hardy and resistant to the corruption of chaos, their mutations probably wouldn't be reverred, but instead acknowledged and utilised.  Hashut's daemons could be machine/engine spirits, they need the magic of the sorcerors and some sort of anchor, maybe an engine, to anchor their spirits into the real world.

Aren't Asuryan, Isha, Vaul, Lileath, Kurnous and Morai-heg from the Eldar of 40k? or are they shared with the elves (never had the High elf army book).

I think it's more to do with religeon-civilisation.

Think of the pagans, who worshipped a god of everything that they needed luck for (war, farming fertility etc), then the vikings who had a kind of psudo-paganism, and worshiped gods of different aspects of war.  The greeks had a very philisophical outlook on the world and their gods were reflectively philosophically based (goddess of love, god of thunder, etc).

What Hashut stands for would therefore (as the main god of the CDs) would be what CD society stands for.

I like Terry Pratchets Outlook on Gods (if anyone has read any of the quite frankly AWESOME discworld series) A god scratches about as a potential entity and gains power as more people believe in them.  But people only believe in their experiences and this comes down to their way of life, which is why Elf gods are sophisticated and complicated, Dwarf Gods are straight up and grudgebearing and the Empire Gods (Sigmar, Morr, Ulric etc) are all hardy, fight-against-all-odds-tough-gods.


IMO, CDs don't consider themselves Chaos, and neither do most Chaos worshippers, but it is how they are perceived by the rest of the warhammer world.

Chicken and egg is easy.  Egg came first, laid by one species, mutated foetus spawned new species (chicken).

God and man.  Hmmm. Spiritual (and probably contraversial).

a species other than a chicken.  That's why it was a mutated foetus.

you're not seriously suggesting the big bang was caused by a chicken?