CDO Forums

Ummm well aware of that; been playing it since October of 1982. I'm not talking about 3rd edition D&D right now I'm talking about original D&D from the 70's /early 80's which was much more abstract in the ideas of ethos. Gary was starting from scratch. Hence his overly simplistic Good equating to Law; Chaos=evil.

Skip to Warhammer. Bryan Ansell who founded GW in essence was a huge fan of Moorcock and his writing. A good deal of imagery and game rules were of the whole Law vs. Chaos motif early on. As time went by these were dropped from the game. Warhammer fantasy role-play had gods of Law in the rules. Ultimately even Warhammer admits in the 1st edition fantasy role-play that is one of the possibilities, out of the multitude of possibilities of chaos is law.

Simply put I agree chaos is a noun as you are saying... simply put chaos can be used for any number of monikers, and in a way denoting some sort of evil. At least this is how I see it, YMMV.

Which I am in agreement with. The warhammer world doesn't neatly fit into such rigid mores as does (most) D&D worlds whatever the flavor. Hell, I'd offer up that it could be conceivably be argued that the World of Warhammer is predominately shades of gray, sort of like a bell curve with law/chaos, evil/good  on the ends. Again YMMV.

God almighty...

"Probably"?

"Probably"?

This is not about a difference of opinion. This is not about me "forcing people to share my opinion" either - it's slavery. If you think it's anything but evil then you're WRONG.

I'm trying really hard not to fly off the handle, but I don't know if I can be polite when people are saying things like this. Both of you are paying lip service to decency and saying things like "no one is saying it's okay" when, in the next sentence you do exactly that.

Rape used to be acceptable too. Genocide was considered a fine way to deal with your neighbours is the ancient world. Slavery, and the kind of attitude that enforces it, belongs with this kind of thinking.

There was nothing unintentional about what I said. I'm offended by someone trying to justify slavery because that kind of attitude is downright repellent. I think you guys need to take a moment to think about what you're actually saying, and what kind of regimes you're supporting with your comments.

No one in the modern age with more than half a brain thinks for even a second that slavery isn't something completely horrible that is an immediate indicator that the perpetrator is evil. I have no idea why you don't agree with that, and I can only conclude that it's due to stupidity or insanity.

I won't apologise for being the only one in this discussion who appears to be able to think rationally.

My intent was to offend, I assure you. I feel extremely strongly about this issue.

When you make excuses like "it was acceptable in the ancient world", you're justifying the opinion that slavery isn't something that is always reprehensible, which it is. Again, I reiterate: many things have been acceptable, even laudable, in the past which are now considered abhorrent: rape, genocide, honour killings, imperialistic conquest of weaker nations. It doesn't change the fact that slavery is quite clearly something evil and monstrous.

See, it's stuff like this that reads like an excuse to me. The circumstances of slavery are irrelevant - it doesn't matter if it "wasn't that bad"; the very concept of owning another human being is offensive and disgusting. Every time someone in this thread tries to explain some quirk of history, it just sounds like you're justifying evil. Don't do it. We're not discussing the historical fact of slavery, we're discussing whether forced servitude, as a concept, it one which can be considered evil. There should be no debate on that subject.

And this is even crazier! You're missing the whole point, and what I see here is "misaimed fandom" - because they're your army, you don't want to think they're the bad guys I guess. Chaos Dwarfs are very definitely evil: they were written to be so. There's no grey area in what they do - they're complete monsters who sacrifice other people to their god in elaborate rituals and work millions of slaves to death.

Just because they don't think it's evil, doesn't mean that we, from our position as outside observers of a fictional society, can't condemn them. They're an evil race.

Which has nothing to do with the reason I started this thread at all, of course, but someone decided to take it off-topic by saying that "no one in the Warhammer world is evil" when, by any modern definition, pretty much everyone in the setting is just that. It's kind of the point, guys.

Then he would have had a great career in the WWE but he had to go and ruin it byy becoming a deity...