Just a note from Palace of the Plague Lord, Zhardrach (the CD) seemed to look with down upon Einnar and the other followers of chaos claiming himself a "follower of the Dark Father." I think their worship of Hashut is a matter of pride.
Yeah, I loved Zhardrach's speech when he was captured but after that he's just kind of almost forgotten about save for a few instances. I think a shining moment might be coming up though... haven't read it all day and I'm only a hundred pages from the end!
The time when the Dawi-Zharr were creatures of chaos are long gone. 3rd edition-like gone. The army book mentions that Hashut
is a chaos god particular to the CD but thats the only real mention of them being chaos worshippers. All the things that you normally consider chaos are also not present with the CD (daemons, horrible mutations etc.)
- Tallhat
I am just building my first CD army, and I am using a blend of hats, masks and helmets...which has left me thinking about iconography and "style" a fair bit and how to get everything to flow together. Because the army is fairly open with regards to not having a book in the last decade, I am feeling that it is OK to choose where on the Chaos spectrum you choose to place the CD, so I think you should be able to do whatever you want. That's why I am building a CD army after all.
I am avoiding too much Chaos iconography myself, as I am trying to differentiate my new army from the HoC player in the campaign we are just starting up. I personally prefer to stress the CD independence, and focus on them being evil slaver/industrialists, rather than "spreading the word" of Chaos like the Hordes.
That said, though, I am using big hat BB CD as my sorcerer characters, and they have the arrow symbols built in, so it is hard to completely avoid. Chaos is part of the CD heritage, and they certainly have close relations with Archaon and company, even if they have not been unusually short marauders for a few editions.
I've always thought of Hashut as a minor god of chaos (as I seem to remember the 40k fluff makes mention of the hordes of minor chaos gods & demi-gods). Don't all chaos worshippers look down on the followers of the other gods? As for not showing the usual chaos trademarks (mutations and daemons), dwarves are supposed to be hardy and resistant to the physical corruption of chaos. As for the daemons, well...as the Chaos Dwarfs are known for binding daemons into their war machines I would think that daemons would be a bit leery of showing their faces around the Dawi'Zharr.
Just my opinion though.
Well after reading up on him (what little there is) it would seem that the god is "....the embodiment of the city, its deity and its master..."
Isnt it possible that Hashut isnt as much a god in the common sense as he is a manifestation of the Dawi-Zharr way of life and way of thinking? That they somhow created him through their labour to build Zharr-Naggrund and the Empire. That he somhow in fact IS Zharr-Naggrund?
- Tallhat
the chaotic wording from D&D refers to the characters personality, if they are chaotic they are unruly, murderous etc
it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers. in fact chaos cultists and warriors are very orderly in what they do.
...or not. All depends on which God they worship Im guessing. But I agree that D&D alignments wont really work here. They are, as stated very different from "true" Chaos.
- Tallhat
Do Chaos Dwarfs/Dawi Zharr consider themselves to be "chaos"?
Based on the older fluff and the developing story line, I would say that it is a definite "maybe."
Pro considering themselves part of chaos -
a. the use of daemons in their forging of weapons of mass destruction;
b. Their acceptance of the hybrids we know as the Bull Centaurs.
Against considering themselves part of chaos -
a. General adherence to the core "dwarf values" (admiration of skill, wealth and age);
b. Hashut is not one of the 4, nor is he a known avatar of any of them; and
c. Their societal structure is very much a mirror of dwarf culture (with a few changes).
Just my two cents.
"Do Chaos Dwarfs/Dawi Zharr consider themselves to be "chaos"? "
I had this idea for why they aren't "Chaos" for the fluff for my army, and their reasons for choosing the battles and allies that they will have in the upcoming campaign I am playing in. I do not believe my idea is in any way definitive, and I will admit I am actively looking for reasons to differenatiate the CD from the HoC. I do feel it fits in reasonable well with the original fluff for the CD, as well as the fluff for Rykarth, before they removed the SoC reference.:
The Chaos mortals, who form the main of the HoC, worship and embrace Chaos, and try to deal in supplication with the dark powers. The Beastmen, who are somewhat further down the path and have become creatures modified by Chaos from birth. Both are bound to specific Chaos gods (even "Chaos Undivided" consists if the 4 main Chaos gods) and all seek to spread their gods influence in exchange for "gifts" in the form of mutations and dark marks.
Chaos Dwarfs are, in my mind slightly different.
They are certainly effected by the Chaos of their environment, with the slow mutation from normal dwarfs to creatures with tusks and, of course, the Bull Centaurs, Taurus and Lammasu, but this is a process that is described as slowly creeping up on them, not as an individual mutation. They do not seem to embrace Chaos and actively seek out its' mutations the way that beastmen and the mortal hordes do. There is no "Mark of Hashut" equivalent to those of Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch, nor any Chosen of Hashut.
Instead, they enslave Chaos, binding demons to make their machines of inestimable power, rather than worshipping them or following them into battle.
The Bull Centaur's place in society is described as having the Dawi Zharr sorcerers "entrust them with complex tasks" rather than taking an active part of the decision making. Were they in a "Hordes" society, they would rule as the mightiest warriors, and not be the lackeys of the unmutated. Even the most powerful Dawi Zharr mutants, Taurus and Lammasu, though prized, are kept as slave/steeds by the less effected Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers. Lammasu are described as beings of great intelligence, but they serve simply as beasts of burden due to the fact that they are no longer true Dawi. Mutants are more "kept" for their usefulness rather than revered as they are in the Chaos Wastes.
So my thought is that the Chaos Dwarves are beings that are infected by the chaos of the Chaos Gate, but they are not of the culture of "Chaos" that has grown in the north and encompasses the Norse Marauders, or the Kurgan. They should not, therefore use too much of the "Hordes" or "Beast" iconography. As slavers, rather than slaves, they should choose their battles according to profit and industry, rather than to further the ends of any gods or demons. They expect a profit from an alliance with "Chaos" and are not simply dwarven Marauders eager to charge into battle with the Empire for the sake of the spread of Chaos.
sigmar is love.
Sigmar was a hard living, hard fighting Barbarian who laid the smack down on anyone who refused to join his Empire.
Then he would have had a great career in the WWE but he had to go and ruin it byy becoming a deity...
Btw did you guys know that the Barbarian in Heroquest is called Sigmar in the examples of characters? 
- Tallhat
Khorne is Anger
Nurgle is Sloth
Slaanesh is Hedonism
Tzeentch is Hope
Sigmar is Unity
The Horned Rat is Deception
The Great Maw is Indulgence
Hashut is Greed
~Bill ^_^
as a great fan of family guy I will have to answer the "what caused the big bang" with a resounding "GAAAAAAAAAWWD" (a hillbilly way of saying God over a long space of time)
But yes, Surely one could say that any race that uses the winds magic is in some way worshiping chaos, this is because magic to the best of my understanding was caused by the the great gate of the old ones collapsing and chaos being unleashed upon the world. 8 winds of magic and 8 points on the chaos star, Furthermore it is suggested in "manslayer" that through no fault of his own Lichtmann (main bad guy) began to mutate and then was forced into the service of chaos in order to survive this shows me that any who use the winds of magic have the taint of chaos and are suceptable to it.
I think the overwhelming conclusion on this matter is that Chaos dwarves do not consider themselves to worship Chaos, However they are clearly in possession of dubious morals and probally do in fact worship chaos in the sense that they serve chaos both indirectly (causing destruction to the forces of order, providing the means to cause destruction by trading with Ogres ect) and directly (creating hellcanons, using magic and channeling deamons) and worship simply translates as "to serve".
To reflect this I think that chaos dwarves should be repesented as evil with subtle chaos undertones. Furthermore as far as chaos is concerned it would probally be chaos undivided that chaos dwaves can be said to serve.
Chaos Dwarves are Chaos because they are called Chaos Dwarves...
Seriously though, Hashut is supposedly a minor daemon, who ascended to godhood like Be'lakor did and Archaon tried to do.
Also, Chaos would exist with any sentient race. Anger, sloth, desire, hope, etc. Magic just made it multiply like Nurglish rabbits.
Bad... images...
Seeing... dingwing... with bracelets on it...
And a pubic hair mohawk...
AUUGH...
Are the CD in the latest Gotrek and Felix book? Never knew.
- Tallhat
Yes, it should probably be added to our "CD references in other books" area.
So why isn't it called "Dawi'Zharrslayer?"
Yes, it should probably be added to our "CD references in other books" area.
So why isn't it called "Dawi'Zharrslayer?"
Maybe because the name stinks big time??
- Tallhat
Is that in the making or hows that?
- Tallhat