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Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf List
Author MessageIssues with the current Chaos Dwarf List
Xander
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Post: #1
At  Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListXander 02-10-2007

Some people consider the Chaos Dwarf list to be broken, though not all.  Here is a list of some issues that non-Chaos Dwarf players would like addressed.

Lundi Wrote:
The only reason people say it's broken is because it's possible to make it broken.

I consider it broken in the manner that it is extremely outdated. It still has fragments of rules from 5th ed Warhammer in it.

What would I change to make it less broken:

# Make the Chaos Dwarf Hero entry identical to the Dwarf Thane entry. No more LD10 Heroes.

# Increase the minimum unit size of Hobgoblin Infantry up to 20, and decrease the minimum unit size of Hobgoblin Wolf Riders to 5.

# Give Hobgoblin Wolf Riders the options to have spears.

# Increase the cost of a Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower to 40 pts.

# Either make the Earthshaker a 0-1 choice, or exchange it completely for the Hellcannon.

# Allow Bull Centaurs to use their weapons as if they were an Infantry unit.

Should be a nice start.

Emphasis mine.

I personally disagree with the Earthshaker assesment.  But everything else seems good.  Sneaky Gits also need updated rules since lapping around kinda got removed in 7th edition.


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This post was last modified: 07-13-2007 09:14 AM by Xander.

02-10-2007 10:03 PM
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Hashut's Blessing
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Post: #2
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListHashut's Blessing 02-11-2007

Exactly what I think. Earthshaker should perhaps be more expensive. But, well, I like it cheap, he he he. Also, to make life easier, have the 5" template be the 'shake' effect area. It's easier to measure then. But, I prefer the 2d6".


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02-11-2007 12:41 PM
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Ellimist
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Post: #3
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListEllimist 02-11-2007

Agree with all those bar the ES one. ESs need to be upped to 130 pnts
IMO.

02-11-2007 05:39 PM
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metro_gnome
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf Listmetro_gnome 02-12-2007

should wolfboyz lose fast cav status if they take LA and shields?

command prices should be addressed...

02-12-2007 03:21 PM
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Xander
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListXander 02-12-2007

Ya, those are good points Metro.


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02-12-2007 04:40 PM
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Hashut's Blessing
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Post: #6
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListHashut's Blessing 02-12-2007

So, if we were purely "fixing" the list, we so far have a general consesnus that we should:
Have a Hero of LD9 for balance purposes.
Wolf riders as a separate choice with options for spears and a min. unit size of 5, they lose Fast Cavalry with armours.
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower up in points cost.
Earthshaker needs an increase in points cost.
Bull Centaurs count as infantry for weapon purposes.

A few thing sthat I propose:
All of our characters should come with armour (heavy at least).
Hobgoblins count as core, but you must always have more Chaos Dwarf units (E.G. Can't have two CD and two HG).
Can't remember the others right now.


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02-12-2007 06:05 PM
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Ellimist
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Post: #7
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListEllimist 02-12-2007

Also: officially sort out the SG's lap-around rule problem. I believe there have been several solutions proposed.

02-12-2007 07:17 PM
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Hashut's Blessing
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListHashut's Blessing 02-12-2007

That may have been what I forgot... He he he.


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02-12-2007 07:45 PM
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metro_gnome
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Post: #9
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf Listmetro_gnome 02-12-2007

well it really was a question i posted...
the RoR hobgoblin wolfboyz also keep their fast cav status even tho they are like armored...
perhpas itz a hobgob thing...

i still think hobgobs should be non minimum core... puts them on the level of dogs in other armies...

02-12-2007 07:47 PM
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hal
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf Listhal 02-12-2007

I don't think that our bolt throwers should be more than 35pts given that the O&G one is 35pts with an extra crewmember and the dwarf one is 45pts with tough crew.

02-12-2007 07:54 PM
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Lord Zarkov
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListLord Zarkov 02-13-2007

I disagree with the ES point, it needs a points increase but not limiting.
I also disagree with bolt throwers going up to 40pts, as said the O&G one is 35 with an extra crewmember so that is really the absolute maximum cost for ours.
BC should count as infantry for weapons and should probably have one of their attacks as 'trample'
We should also IMO have a 4+sv armour.
A stated by metro, command prices definitly need to be fixed


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02-13-2007 07:44 AM
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Hobgoblyn
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListHobgoblyn 02-13-2007

I think Hobgoblins should be required to have alight armor and cost 4 points base prior to being equipped with shields, spears, or 2nd hand weapons and in order to make them fully worth 1 point above Goblins (rather than 1/2 a point) and to fit their fluff they should get a base I of 3 (so they are as fast as humans at least). A minimum unit of 15 should also be good, 20 is too much and 10 is too low. (of course, I imagine anyone smart will buy basic warriors in teams of 30 or so anyway)

Archers and Wolf Riders should be seperate entries...
Beyond that... well, I have a whole list of ideas of what to do with them.

02-13-2007 01:30 PM
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Kyte
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListKyte 02-13-2007

Don't nerf anything! Cheese is a CD general's best friend on the battlefield. Do not mess around with the BT, or I'll demolish you, as I'm the demolition man!

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02-13-2007 03:42 PM
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pulper
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf Listpulper 02-13-2007

I agree with all things mentioned in the first post.
Furthermore the Taurus should go up in points as the critter is simply to cheap if compared to griffons.
Blunderbusses should roll a number of hits equal to the unit strength for all units in the fire zone. This way chariots and monsters would no loger ignore their volley. A maximum strength of 4 would be in order than imho.

02-13-2007 05:57 PM
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Weregerbil
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RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListWeregerbil 02-14-2007

Hmm Max st of 4 for blunderbusses makes sense, and I like the idea about BC having one of their attacks as a tramle one.  The bolt throwers are pretty much the same as goblin ones and so should be pointed around the same.

And thats all I can think of now.

02-14-2007 08:24 PM
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wallacer
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Post: #16
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf Listwallacer 02-14-2007

I think the CD list could be helped quite a bit by making Dwarf units mainstay units (like clanrats in the Skaven army list) which would prevent people from tanking out on cheap Hobgoblin units and bolt throwers.  This would go a long way towards mitigating the broken-ness of the list, such as it is.

You're correct about the Bull Centaur infantray/cavalry issue.  That one really needs to be cleared up.


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02-14-2007 08:41 PM
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gIL^
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Post: #17
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListgIL^ 02-14-2007

i think the list is pretty fine, and very hard to fight against

02-14-2007 10:40 PM
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Asger
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Post: #18
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListAsger 02-15-2007

Some good suggestions coupled with some rather useless and ignorant responses.

Compared to the original post, all I really disagree with is the boltthrower at 35pts instead of 40, but this is hardly an important matter. The other part is the Earth shaker assesment.

I think it needs to be changed, and the suggestion I have and prefer is to simply make the area effect a march blocking effect. That way it doesn't stop charges, or double up if you already march block your enemy. Nor do you quadrupel the effect if two are fielded which is really quite silly. Price should stay approximately the same, though a smalle tweak either way might be needed.

Asger

02-15-2007 09:38 AM
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Xander
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Post: #19
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListXander 02-15-2007

Two ESs will not make things move at a quarter rate... But this march blocking thing seems to be a trend.


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02-15-2007 10:17 AM
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Hashut's Blessing
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Post: #20
RE: Issues with the current Chaos Dwarf ListHashut's Blessing 02-15-2007

Multiple ESs aren't cumulative. It halves the movement characteristic, not halves movement.

So, let's take a look at the general consensus and the individuals:


Genral:
LD 9 hero.
HG cavalry minimum unit size=5
HG infantry minimum unit size increase.
HG cavalry can have spears.
HG Bolt thrower increase in price (I think this should only be with an extra crewman).
BCs count as infantry for weapons purposes.
HG cavalry lose Fast Cavalry with armour/shields.
Points cost of command needs sorting.
SG Lap Around rule needs changing.
ES needs points increase.
BBs need a slight revamp. (number of hits=unit strength of enemy)
BCs have one Trample attack and one normal.


Individual wants:
ES march blocks, not halves movement rate.
Nothing to be changed.
Max BB S4.
HGs come with armour and have I3.
A 4+AS available.
HG cavalry don't lose Fast Cavalry regardless. (Makes sense, but also doesn't...)
All characters have heavy armour as standard.
HGs as core but always at least one more unit of CD.
ES is 0-1 or Hellcannon.

So, any of the individual views likely to become general consensus? Any more things or anything I've missed out? (I left out my proposition for the 5" template replacing the 2D6" area affect of the Es because it was purely because it could've been easier, not what I wanted to happen.)


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WarplockMonkey Wrote:
After years of rigerous scientific reasearch, it has now been proven that there is a 50% chance that HB is 'in your fridge, eatin your cakez'.

02-15-2007 10:45 AM
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