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The Shackled Consorts of the Bull God
Author MessageThe Shackled Consorts of the Bull God
Admiral
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Post: #21
RE: The Cow Herd of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-03-2014

@MadHatter: Nice! I think you're onto something with that symbolism. We'll chuck it in. Cheers!

MadHatter Wrote:
The Old World is naught but a heifer mounted by the Great Bull-God. Hashut!


You've bought into it. Tongue Wink

Bloodbeard Wrote:
Good writing as always Admiral. And a good discusion has followed. Will make my points brief.

1. I hate cowcentaurs. I don't think the fit into the setting or bsxckground. Thy bullcentairs were born back in the day, and a born by regular chaos dwarf women. Acxording to Tharmurkhan that is official. The priest do everything they can to kewp the frw bullcentauers alive, to the point of frankensteinism.

That, and the fact they aren't mentioned,  tells me cowcentaurs don't exist. If there where female and male centauers, there would be greater numbers.

So I say cut the xowcentaur part.


Thanks! I'd normally be inclined to agree in a case like this, but here the sticking to "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" have one particular strength:

It allows us to make use of Thommy H's Dreadborn fluff.

It's cool, so it would be a shame to pass it up for other fluff bits. What do others think?

Still, I've removed it here to make it less glaring.

Bloodbeard Wrote:
2.  I suggest changing the word from "cow" to "heifer". A cow is female cattle that has had offspring.  A heifer is female catyle that hasn't.  I thinl the word is cooler and it would make senae they havn't fathered any children or calves. Children because thwy must be pure wives to Hashut. Calves because Hashut doesn't have children.

The rumour or myth of the Herd of Tens offspeing woukd be a completly, but cool, othrr story.

3. In hebrew religious context "the red heifer", was a red skinned heifer sacrificed to God in a purification ritual. Specifically people who had been in contact with corpses would purify themselves bathing in the still hot ashes. Red is our colour. And cattle is our symbol. And sacrife through fire is pretty much our thing.

And the historical reference to religious sacrifice is rather cool.

Might even take care of the naming problem. The hebrew name is Para Adumah.

Peace! *drops mic*


Good idea and reference! Heifer sounds a lot better, and would work for the nine wives, whilst the concubine representing the Chaos Dwarfs (like MadHatter proposed) wouldn't be a heifer, perhaps to represent the existence of Bull Centaurs and Tauruses, and perhaps to represent Hashut's domination already in place on the Dawi Zharr. After all, Hashut has to have children if he's the Father of Darkness.

So, that leaves us the name question. Should we stick with "Shackled Consorts" or go for something different, and what do you people think about "the Shackled Heifers of the Bull God"?

Besides, I've updated the fluff as per the new suggestions and Audhumblification. What do you think?

Also, I'm currently sick at home and have taken the opportunity to do a heifer of Hashut picture. Here's the early work in progress state as of currently:



It's not painted on a post-it patch, just heavily yellowed for a basecoat, because the picture will contain warm colours only bar for lightning strikes. The aim is to imitate FW's dark fiery CD paintings. The metal plates will be much less visible when it's all finished, and there will probably be more flesh visible as well.






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This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 06:06 AM by Admiral.

07-03-2014 01:37 AM
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Dînadan
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Post: #22
RE: The Cow Herd of the Bull GodDînadan 07-03-2014

MadHatter Wrote:
The Old World is naught but a heifer mounted by the Great Bull-God. Hashut!

Potential shout out to aSoIaF - maybe the reason the Chaos Dwarfs haven't gone into full on war mode and tried to conquer the world is because they're awaiting the prophisised birth of 'the Bull who will Mount the World'? ;p


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07-03-2014 06:17 AM
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Admiral
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Post: #23
RE: The Cow Herd of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-03-2014

Alright, my attempt at painting one of these heifers was struck with several failures and flawed repairation attempts. I don't have the necessary competence to do it as of currently, but I might return to it if my skills improve. Here's the raw WIP state in which it's shelved:



Dînadan Wrote:
Potential shout out to aSoIaF - maybe the reason the Chaos Dwarfs haven't gone into full on war mode and tried to conquer the world is because they're awaiting the prophisised birth of 'the Bull who will Mount the World'? ;p


You can bet they have some prophecies like that. Pirate


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This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 12:43 PM by Admiral.

07-03-2014 12:42 PM
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Admiral
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Post: #24
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-03-2014

Herby Wrote:
Damn! Look at it. Look how it bursts the flames out of its udder! Gosh! Taken your painting as a whole it is fearsome scenery. I like it.

P.S.: Get well soon.


Thank you, Herby! I hope to return to the fire cow one day and finish it, at the moment I have insufficient skills and need to level up. For example, I wouldn't even manage to paint the molten metal in a way that is different enough from the flames, and I can't get the flames to work along with the body.

The sickness should pass any day now, it's nothing life-threatening. Wink


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07-03-2014 05:34 PM
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Post: #25
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull Godtorn 07-03-2014

I'm not sure if this will work, but take a black marker and go over all your pencil outlines on top of the paint. It might not be what you were after originally but should work as a piece of art.

And I have to say I prefer the new name, although I am still torn on the whole female cow thing. I prefer to see bull centaurs more as creatures of chaos, closer to beastmen of old, rather than mortal creatures.


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07-03-2014 10:38 PM
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Post: #26
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodBloodbeard 07-03-2014

torn Wrote:
And I have to say I prefer the new name, although I am still torn on the whole female cow thing. I prefer to see bull centaurs more as creatures of chaos, closer to beastmen of old, rather than mortal creatures.


Word!


07-03-2014 10:54 PM
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Admiral
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Post: #27
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-04-2014

torn Wrote:
I'm not sure if this will work, but take a black marker and go over all your pencil outlines on top of the paint. It might not be what you were after originally but should work as a piece of art.


Thanks for the tip, but I'd rather wait and if possible redo it like it was intended from the start. Happy

torn Wrote:
And I have to say I prefer the new name, although I am still torn on the whole female cow thing. I prefer to see bull centaurs more as creatures of chaos, closer to beastmen of old, rather than mortal creatures.


Bloodbeard Wrote:
Word!


But we've left out Cow Centaurs all together so it's entirely voluntary for the reader to go with Thommy's Dreadborn fluff or the more canonic interpretation.

However, we can't escape there are cows in the Chaos Dwarf thinking, because Tauruses are "natural" monsters not Daemons. They breed true, otherwise they'd go extinct. CDs are bull worshippers, but cows would have some very minor role to play in their culture nevertheless, which this background tries to explore.

MadHatter and I have come up with symbolism which hopefully should underline why this is fitting for CDs (if it is). Please read the fluff piece again if you missed the update. Hopefully it should work better now. Happy


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This post was last modified: 07-04-2014 03:58 AM by Admiral.

07-04-2014 03:02 AM
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torn
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Post: #28
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull Godtorn 07-04-2014

Admiral Wrote:

torn Wrote:
I'm not sure if this will work, but take a black marker and go over all your pencil outlines on top of the paint. It might not be what you were after originally but should work as a piece of art.


Thanks for the tip, but I'd rather wait and if possible redo it like it was intended from the start. Happy

torn Wrote:
And I have to say I prefer the new name, although I am still torn on the whole female cow thing. I prefer to see bull centaurs more as creatures of chaos, closer to beastmen of old, rather than mortal creatures.


Bloodbeard Wrote:
Word!



But we've left out Cow Centaurs all together so it's entirely voluntary for the reader to go with Thommy's Dreadborn fluff or the more canonic interpretation.

However, we can't escape there are cows in the Chaos Dwarf thinking, because Tauruses are "natural" monsters not Daemons. They breed true, otherwise they'd go extinct. CDs are bull worshippers, but cows would have some very minor role to play in their culture nevertheless, which this background tries to explore.

MadHatter and I have come up with symbolism which hopefully should underline why this is fitting for CDs (if it is). Please read the fluff piece again if you missed the update. Hopefully it should work better now. Happy


A good point, another thing to think about. What do chaos dwarfs eat? There isn't a lot of food in the dark lands. I have just had a vision of a great cow, or a battery of cows, giant cows, chained in underground lairs and connected up to infernal milking and calf birthing machines. They are fed unwanted slaves and the whole thing is powered by warpstone.

Another random thought, if there is a great Taurus, is there also a regular Taurus?


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07-04-2014 04:59 AM
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Admiral
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Post: #29
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-04-2014

torn Wrote:
A good point, another thing to think about. What do chaos dwarfs eat? There isn't a lot of food in the dark lands. I have just had a vision of a great cow, or a battery of cows, giant cows, chained in underground lairs and connected up to infernal milking and calf birthing machines. They are fed unwanted slaves and the whole thing is powered by warpstone.

Another random thought, if there is a great Taurus, is there also a regular Taurus?


I really like your idea for the meat caves! It's suitably bovine, grimdark, industrial and Daemonic.

Food production for the evil races in inhospitable lands is often something left entirely to the imagination by Games Workshop and others, yet in the 7th edition Skaven book we're told about slaves toiling endlessly with the fields in the marshes around Skavenblight. So how does the Dawi Zharr feed themselves?

One first step is always to imagine those inhospitable lands as less ashen desert than they often are depicted in artwork, and more like steppe landscape with patches of vegetation here and there. Much of it would have thorns and the like since it's Warhammer, but all those monsters and evil creatures have to live off something.

Meat factories, like you propose, is one solution. Another would be slave-worked grand plantations, akin to Roman Latifundia, growing hardy grain and other crops along the polluted River Ruin. The harvests would be unhealthy at best, yet the Chaos Dwarfs' constitution must handle it, and then the slaves can go and die if they don't stand the food in the long run, because they're dead men walking in any case. Greenskins are quite tough, so they should stand it until they're whipped to death.

Their fleets probably include vessels trawling the Sea of Claws and Sea of Dread just like modern fishing ships do. Chaos Dwarfs are industrialists, after all. Nasty weaponry would also feature to handle all those monsters in the Warhammer seas.

Cattle herds could also feature for food production, overseen by Hobgoblin wolf riders and some feared Chaos Dwarf inspectors. Some animal husbandry and grazing in the almost barren Dark Lands would tie back to the ancient inspirational sources for Chaos Dwarfs, since animal husbandry was very important in the region conquered by the Assyrians and Babylonians.

Hunting parties might exist in the Dark Land, though they would probably hunt Greenskins as well as beasts if they have a hard time finding animals to kill. But most importantly for the grimdark of it, Chaos Dwarfs eat slave flesh. This was a thing about Chaos Dwarfs when they were described back in 6th edition, when Ogre Kingdoms got released. I also think ash would feature as an ingredient in Chaos Dwarf cuisine, though it might be more of religious rules and taste rather than filler material.

Speaking of religious rules of food, I can imagine there being mystical importance for CDs to consuming the meat of creatures from the Chaos Wastes, since they have been touched by Chaos.

As for Tauruses, I've no idea. Great Taurus could perhaps just be a honorific, or it could mean a full-grown Taurus, or a larger breed. Since they, being big monsters, wouldn't be all that numerous, I think we wouldn't see breeds of smaller Tauruses around.


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This post was last modified: 07-04-2014 06:00 AM by Admiral.

07-04-2014 05:55 AM
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Dînadan
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Post: #30
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodDînadan 07-04-2014

Admiral Wrote:
Food production for the evil races in inhospitable lands is often something left entirely to the imagination by Games Workshop and others, yet in the 7th edition Skaven book we're told about slaves toiling endlessly with the fields in the marshes around Skavenblight. So how does the Dawi Zharr feed themselves?

One first step is always to imagine those inhospitable lands as less ashen desert than they often are depicted in artwork, and more like steppe landscape with patches of vegetation here and there. Much of it would have thorns and the like since it's Warhammer, but all those monsters and evil creatures have to live off something.

Meat factories, like you propose, is one solution. Another would be slave-worked grand plantations, akin to Roman Latifundia, growing hardy grain and other crops along the polluted River Ruin. The harvests would be unhealthy at best, yet the Chaos Dwarfs' constitution must handle it, and then the slaves can go and die if they don't stand the food in the long run, because they're dead men walking in any case. Greenskins are quite tough, so they should stand it until they're whipped to death.


Considering the Dark Lands are inspired by Mordor, I think this is plausible; most of Mordor is actually verdant farmland - the blacken wasteland and lava flows everyone imagines is just the Plain of Gorgoroth in the north western portion of Mordor; the entire eastern half is called the slave fields of Nurnen.  As such it'd make sense if similar slave plantations existed in the Dark Lands.




Another possibility, unless I'm mistaken Dwarfs of the Worlds Edge Mountains have large mushroom farms in their Dwarfholds, maybe similar fungi cultivations exist in Chaos Dwarf cities?


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07-04-2014 08:07 AM
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Admiral
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Post: #31
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-04-2014

Dînadan Wrote:
Considering the Dark Lands are inspired by Mordor, I think this is plausible; most of Mordor is actually verdant farmland - the blacken wasteland and lava flows everyone imagines is just the Plain of Gorgoroth in the north western portion of Mordor; the entire eastern half is called the slave fields of Nurnen.  As such it'd make sense if similar slave plantations existed in the Dark Lands.

Another possibility, unless I'm mistaken Dwarfs of the Worlds Edge Mountains have large mushroom farms in their Dwarfholds, maybe similar fungi cultivations exist in Chaos Dwarf cities?


That makes sense. Although I've never seen any GW text mentioning Dwarf mushroom farms, that'd be logical. I'm sure Thommy had some GW source in mind when he mentioned fungus crusts in his log's story.

Thinking about the food production problems facing large evil empires in lands usually portrayed as barren is quite refreshing. It makes said empires more interesting, and the lands more interesting as well since they can't be that barren to support such large populations.

If nothing else, volcanic ground is fertile. Since this is Warhammer and the Dark Lands are supposed to be inhospitable, it's probably a hardy, unaesthetic kind of vegetation which often clings in nooks and cranies, but much of it would still have to be nourishing.

So, for food production we could imagine grimdark meat 'n' milk factories, animal husbandry, plantations with crops, mushroom farms (maybe often situated in exhausted mining shafts?), some minor hunting and collecting plus trawling in the Seas of Chaos and Dread. Also the eating of slaves.

That seems sensible enough.

Good parallell to Lotr, too. Takes Hat off


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07-04-2014 08:27 AM
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Post: #32
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodMadHatter 07-04-2014

Meatcaves is brilliant! I think there would exist a variation of cattle
however neither cow or bull, rather I imagine skaven and human (fast breeding races) feed the lower cast of Dawi'Zharr while the richer dine on exotic slowbreeding luxeries like ogre, elf and dwarf. I imagine old mushroom farming tech would be suitable on an industrious scale to feed the slaves while more excuisite farms would grow a variety of other mushrooms used in Dawi'Zharr cooking. A dessert popular among the highest of the Rinn'Zharr would be one especially sweet mushroom mixed with the blood of an elf noble and fresh snow from the Mountains of Mourn.

Love the updates, one thing however...
Heifers don't milk! Happy


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07-04-2014 08:59 AM
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Post: #33
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodAdmiral 07-04-2014

MadHatter Wrote:
Meatcaves is brilliant! I think there would exist a variation of cattle
however neither cow or bull, rather I imagine skaven and human (fast breeding races) feed the lower cast of Dawi'Zharr while the richer dine on exotic slowbreeding luxeries like ogre, elf and dwarf. I imagine old mushroom farming tech would be suitable on an industrious scale to feed the slaves while more excuisite farms would grow a variety of other mushrooms used in Dawi'Zharr cooking. A dessert popular among the highest of the Rinn'Zharr would be one especially sweet mushroom mixed with the blood of an elf noble and fresh snow from the Mountains of Mourn.

Love the updates, one thing however...
Heifers don't milk! Happy


Nice ideas. Cheers!

It sounded like Heifers did when I looked at some farmer's forums to check it out. Odd that they do, I thought, but what the heck! It seems that heifers milk whilst they're pregnant. They don't become cows before giving birth.

Here's a Swedish example.

Which would be loaded with further more symbolism. Hashut!


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07-04-2014 09:52 AM
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Post: #34
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodGrimstonefire 07-04-2014

I did quite some work back in the day on dividing up the dark lands into regions and deciding on suitable natural resources.  Considering the size of the dark lands it's inevitable that certain areas would be much more rich in some things than others.  For example I imagine somewhere would be an area suitable for farming, and considering the amount of food required this could be the size of the UK as a comparison.  perhaps following tributaries to the river ruin (as nothing would grow immediately either side).

Or a forest of evil trees (and treemen) that are as wild as the inhospitable lands.

On the cow thing, I believed until I saw the picture and went back to reread it I thought I was reading about cow centaurs (as in expecting a female upper body).

Hashut as I see it has always been portrayed as a bull because of strength and raw primal power.  These are traits that CD women wuld appreciate I think.  If they were primitive humans then I'd say that's all they would need as a reason to worship him.

However, these are dwarfs (of a kind), and you have to remember how pragmatic dwarfs are about religion as they are about everything.  

So, as I see CD (both male and female) worshiping Hashut through major cults, I can also see them worshiping him through minor cults as well.

In principle I think worshiping a bull for fertility is as valid a reason as any other, but from a male breeding perspective and not from a child bearing perspective (as hashut is a bull god and not a heifer).

Having pure beasts (and not beast/dwarf hybrids) as worshiping creatures is certainly not common in the warhammer world outside of BoC, and I doubt if minotaurs and trolls worship anything.  Would these be intelligent creatures?


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Post: #35
RE: The Shackled Consorts of the Bull GodMadHatter 07-05-2014

Admiral Wrote:
Which would be loaded with further more symbolism. Hashut!


Hashut!


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MadHatter's 90's Big Hats Blog!
07-05-2014 09:36 AM
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