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2500 No-Comp Castle
Author Message2500 No-Comp Castle
pedneault
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2500 No-Comp Castlepedneault 09-11-2014

Hello fellow Dwarves ! I am a long-time lurker/reader from the forum and I will be bringing a CD army to a tournament in a couple of months and I can't decide on one of the two lists that I will present to you today. Both are pretty much the same but with some tweakings here and there. Before I start,  I have to say that these lists are not meant to be friendly and it will go against all the cheese you can get from every other army : unkillableDP/2Aboms+toys/2khannonsnurgle/etc...
-------------------------------------
List 1 : 2492 pts
 Lords (400pts)
    -Sorcerer-prophet (400)      
  Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Chalice of blood and darkness, Level 4 Hashut


 Heroes (536pts)
   -Daemonsmith Sorcerer (125) 
             Charmed Shield, BRB - Dispel Scroll, Level 1 Fire
   -Daemonsmith Sorcerer (95) 
              Level 1 Shadow
    -Hobgoblin Khan (58)            
               Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear
   -Hobgoblin Khan (58)
             Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear 
    -Infernal Castellan (200) 
              Battle Standard Bearer, Great weapon, Mask of the Furnace

Core (646pts)
    -Hobgoblin Cutthroats (100pts) 
            Bow
    -Hobgoblin Cutthroats (100pts)
            Bow
    -23x Infernal Guard Full Command (446pts) 
              Hailshot Blunderbuss

Special (490pts)
    -Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
    -Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
    -Magma Cannon
    -Magma Cannon


Rare (420pts)
    -Hellcannon
    -Hellcannon

--------------------------------------------------------
List 2 : 2490 pts

+ Lords + (400pts)
    -Sorcerer-prophet (400)      
  Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Chalice of blood and darkness, Level 4 Hashut
 

 Heroes (534pts)
   -Daemonsmith Sorcerer (160) 
             Charmed Shield, BRB - Dispel Scroll, Level 2 Fire
    -Hobgoblin Khan (58)            
            Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear
   -Hobgoblin Khan (58)
             Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear 
    -Hobgoblin Khan (58)
             Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear
    -Infernal Castellan (200) 
              Battle Standard Bearer, Great weapon, Mask of the Furnace

Core(646pts)
    -Hobgoblin Cutthroats (100pts) 
             Bow
    -Hobgoblin Cutthroats (100pts)
              Bow
    -23x Infernal Guard Full Command (446pts) 
              Hailshot Blunderbuss

Special (490pts)
    -Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
    -Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
    -Magma Cannon
    -Magma Cannon

Rare (420pts)
    -Hellcannon
    -Hellcannon

-------------------------
Tactics :
- Both of the lists have all the shooty goodies of the chaos dwarves
- Both have the prophet deployed in the IG less than 3inch away from a rocket
- Deployment should look like the photo I have joined to the post, not too sure about the quality but in general, ig in the middle, Hellcannons protecting a flank each, machines in between.
-Hobgoblins with bows are just little annoyance drop to make sure scouts aren't too close or on my side turn 1/2.
-The fire Daemonsmith babysit a pair of magma/rocket, shoot magma first, use reroll only if it could go Boom!

Differences :
1 : 1 more channeling, 1 more reroll on warmachines
2 : 1 more khan, more chance to get cage on the fire daemonsmith

So which one is your favorite ? Anything you would change on both ? What army/unit is going to make my life hard ? Any advices in general? All comments are welcome!

Thanks!



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09-11-2014 11:09 AM
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Bloodbeard
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Post: #2
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleBloodbeard 09-11-2014

Must be a mistake, but you cannot choose lore of shadows on a daemon smith. Choose metal and hope for "sword of albain". The +1 to hit/armour piercing will increase the deadlyness of hobgoblins / blunderbuss' a  lot. The fireball is great and will possible hit from turn 1, with longest range.

I would go for list number one. 6 warmachines = 2 re-rolls wont be enough. You need them to hit a lot, in order to get your points back. Fire the magma cannons first. Then prioritize between hellcannon and deatshriekers. With some luck you'll get to re-roll two scatter dice (as one machine will misfire) every turn, in hopes of a hit.

It's a nasty list for sure.

My worry is that your blunderbuss wall aint strong enough and the hobgoblins will run away too fast. So thinking (though I'v never played castle) that two regiments of board n' sword with bsb in one, crown of command in another is a better choice. Given that 23 blunderbuss will not do much damage, will only fire once (maybe twice with some luck and ash storm). And that the blunderbuss upgrade can be traded to the first 11 extra CDs.


09-11-2014 12:02 PM
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Kamphre
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Post: #3
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleKamphre 09-11-2014

I would also go for the first list.
There are 3 re-rolls, with the prophet.

You may add a 5 pts magic item (ironcurse maybe) for a little more protection, or a luckstone on the BSB. Or 2 more Hobgobs.
I don't really like blunderbuss because of their cost. And to be fully efficient you need at least 30. If you really want to shoot, take fireglaives, which have a longer range and will give you S+1.

09-11-2014 12:16 PM
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pedneault
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Post: #4
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlepedneault 09-11-2014

Yes! Exactly what I was looking for !

-The first iteration of list 1 had 2 blocks of s&b cause I don't like having all my eggs in the same basket.
- Although the crown of command doesn't fit in this already tight list cause of the 25% core tax and I think it's needed.
-BS 3 shooting in 8th edition is quite bad, so I'm reluctant to go with fireglaives
-Metal lvl 1 yeah! Typo there! I'll leave shadow to the lamassu.

Let's say I forget the crown of command and take list 1 with this core base :

20xhob/bow
20xIG S&B FC (stubborn bsb in here)

Which one of these options would do better without being stubborn and having the prophet inside :
-20xIG S&B FC
Or
- 14xIF fireglaives FC
Or
-13×IF blunderbus FC

Cheers!

09-11-2014 01:27 PM
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Bloodbeard
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Post: #5
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleBloodbeard 09-11-2014

20 IG S&B FC. The other options will not earn their points back in shooting. I simply don̈́'t believe it.

You should find 5 points for the Iron Curse Icon. Always a good idea. Perhaps the Lichbone pennant. Since the IG units will be the ones hit by magic.

Oh: And welcome to CDO Pedneault! I must say your first posts impressed me. Two lists, well worked through, accompanying  tactical thoughts and some meta data on your gaming environment. That's the best way to come and ask for advice.


09-11-2014 02:07 PM
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sam585
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Post: #6
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlesam585 09-11-2014

Irondemons would serve you way better then the rockets for killing big threats like monsters, demonprinces, and dragons. And you already got your RnF infantry threats covered with the magma cannons.

I would drop the hobgoblins and just get more blunderbusses.  And give your bsb the ironcurse icon.

You might be kinda screwed if you go up against a lot of cannons due to how much better they are at killing our warmachines, irondemons included so just expect the worst against that sort of list.

09-11-2014 02:39 PM
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pedneault
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Post: #7
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlepedneault 09-11-2014

@bloodbeard With this setup I already have 10 pts free and I could even have another 12 by taking one IG out. Probably going to fit the gleaming pendant on the not stubborn IG first. I'll look a the ironcurse too. Thanns for the welcome!

@sam
The price of the irondaemon is completely ridiculous, I can almost fit 3 rockets for 1 of them. And with the rerolls, it should help on the accuracy!
And for dropping the goblins for more bodies, I think when you get past 12xlarge you start being too much of a footprint to be useful, even if stubborn. And I like the 1 more drop on deployment even if it won't change much on a artillery based style army. Thanks for your input and ideas !

09-11-2014 03:20 PM
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Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed
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RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleVantraxx the Thrice Cursed 09-11-2014

i find the key to a good castle tactic is stopping the enemy from reaching your warmachines. I believe your blunderbuss unit is the real weak link. With such a short range the enemy can just go around them. just a few wounds and the unit is a lot less effective. I would go 24 sword and board and place your Castellan and prophet in there. Arm bsb for defense so i would give mask, shield and ironcurse icon. Banner would be +1 magic res to keep him real safe. He feeds the hobgoblins in line after all...  I would move the chalice to one of your low level sorcerers, it is too much of a liability imo, the daemonsmithsa still get their 2++ look out sir so he should still be safe. Rest of core filled out with cheap hobgobbos... they are the real heroes for stopping and redirecting the enemy.

In regards to the iron daemon, remember it is not stubborn but it is unbreakable. This makes it very nice for stopping the enemies worsts units dead in their tracks, working in tandem with bull centaurs they are a very strong combo. unfortunantly things like poison will mess it up so against other cheesy lists i would leave it at home.

What i think your army lacks is an assault element. Even in a castle situation the enemy will get into combat. Khans, wolf riders, hobgobbo small units are our only solid redirectors, more redirecting should equal more shooting as the enemy is trying to remanouver to get a charge on. A unit of 4 bull centaurs with greatweaponns in a 2x2 formation can help when combat met.


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09-11-2014 07:45 PM
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sam585
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Post: #9
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlesam585 09-12-2014

comparing irondemons and rockets is the ridiculous part, they are two completely different tools but a tool I feel would serve you well if you are fighting a lot of cheese because where rockets are ok at dealing with big nasties, iron demons are amazing and provide an assault element to your force.

I am suggesting to get more blunders not for more frontage, but for more survival from the odd opponent who takes shots at the unit. 25+ feels like the right amount because if they get hit by 2 cannons you still have 21 wheras if you get hit by 2 cannons in your current set of 23 you are down to 19 and useless. Blunderbusses in a pure castle list are not just their to fill out core, but are one of your most powerful range units in your army capable of turning gutstars, chaos warriors, hell anything into a pile of blood and guts so long as they are above the 20 model mark.

Now you can also go for a fireglaive unit which would fill a nice assault roll in your gunline and give you another tool to shoot big monsters with.

09-12-2014 12:12 AM
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Geist
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Post: #10
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleGeist 09-12-2014

Iron Demons mow down everything but T8 stuff.  That gun is stupid powerful.

09-12-2014 12:35 AM
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Heavygear
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Post: #11
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleHeavygear 09-12-2014

sam585 Wrote:
comparing irondemons and rockets is the ridiculous part, they are two completely different tools but a tool I feel would serve you well if you are fighting a lot of cheese because where rockets are ok at dealing with big nasties, iron demons are amazing and provide an assault element to your force.

I am suggesting to get more blunders not for more frontage, but for more survival from the odd opponent who takes shots at the unit. 25+ feels like the right amount because if they get hit by 2 cannons you still have 21 wheras if you get hit by 2 cannons in your current set of 23 you are down to 19 and useless. Blunderbusses in a pure castle list are not just their to fill out core, but are one of your most powerful range units in your army capable of turning gutstars, chaos warriors, hell anything into a pile of blood and guts so long as they are above the 20 model mark.

Now you can also go for a fireglaive unit which would fill a nice assault roll in your gunline and give you another tool to shoot big monsters with.


Are they really useless at 19 strong? They don't get to reroll misses but they still shoot with no penalty.


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09-12-2014 08:54 AM
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pedneault
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Post: #12
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlepedneault 09-12-2014

20 Vs. T4 warriors 4+ save : avg. 7.4 wounds after save
19 Vs. T4 warriors 4+ save : avg. 4.22 wounds after save

Fireglaives for style
20 hitting on 6's in a s&s reaction : 1.38 wounds on average

It's rough numbers but the idea is there : 7 wounds on warriors is alot.
There's still stuff you can't compare though. FG will then have +1 S in combat vs. Parry for the blunderbusses.

I just don't get the part where the iron daemon shooting is awesome an average of 4/6 shot hitting on 6's (sometimes 5's). Is there something I am reading wrong ? I get the assault/harder to kill part but I just can't figure out the point cost. I supose it might replace a hellcannon on a flank ?

09-12-2014 10:17 AM
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sam585
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Post: #13
RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlesam585 09-12-2014

pedneault Wrote:
I just don't get the part where the iron daemon shooting is awesome an average of 4/6 shot hitting on 6's (sometimes 5's). Is there something I am reading wrong ? I get the assault/harder to kill part but I just can't figure out the point cost. I supose it might replace a hellcannon on a flank ?


It hits on 5s because it ignores the penalties of moving and shooting, now when using it since you are hitting on 5s with usually 4-6 shots you target monsters.monst calv because you only need to get a few hits through on those targets to ruin their day.

Look at it this way, the rockets have two bullseyes on it to get the direct hit. The irondemon has essentially 2 bulleyes with the cannonade need 5s and 6s and eventually 4s in the late game so thats 3 bullseyes. The irondemon though can pump out 4-6 sometimes 10 shots where a rocket can only do 1, and yes the irondemon can double 2 and at worst double misfire, but its pretty unlikely.

The irondemon absolutely destroys monst calv, and monsters due to it also have d3 wounds per shot. It can also protect a flank.

It would be good to have in your list because it gives you a different shooting tool. And it allows you to get the odd misfire out of the way, saving your demonsmiths rerolls for your more important stuff like hellcannon shots/magma cannon shots.

NOW if you are deadset on not taking the irondemon then that is fine too, and its not like you wont do well without it. It is just that the irondemon is very unique in its roll at reliable killing monsters, whereas the death rocket tho good might need to spend 2 or 3 rounds of shooting at monsters and it is really should be focused on killing enemy cannons/ironblasters/and skull cannons.

09-12-2014 10:42 AM
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pedneault
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RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlepedneault 09-12-2014

Totally sold! You got me!

Here is what I will start to play with :

Lords :  (400pts)
    -Sorcerer-prophet
  Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Chalice of blood and darkness, Level 4 Hashut


Heroes (447pts)
   -Daemonsmith Sorcerer (125)
             Charmed Shield, BRB - Dispel Scroll, Level 1 Fire
   -Hobgoblin Khan (59)
             Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Biting Blade
    -Hobgoblin Khan (58)
             Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Spear
    -Infernal Castellan (205)
              Battle Standard Bearer, Great weapon, Mask of the Furnace,         Ironcurse Icon

Core : (628pts)
    -Hobgoblin Cutthroats (108pts)
              Bow/standard
    -27x Infernal Guard Full Command (520pts)  
              Hailshot Blunderbuss

Special (490pts)
    -Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
    -Iron Daemon War Engine
    -Magma Cannon
    -Magma Cannon
    -3xBull Centaur Renders
               Standard/Gleaming pendant

Rare (210pts)
    -Hellcannon

Total : 2495

Releasing 2 warmachines for 1 more accurate gives me the oppurtunity to get rid of the second daemonsmith,  which nets me 140 pts. This is where the 3 centaurs come into play!

I will probably try the 2x19 IF FC S&B too cause 27 blunderbusses with 2 characters is a looooooooot of points!

09-12-2014 11:13 AM
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Geist
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Post: #15
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleGeist 09-12-2014

I am getting to the point where I dislike running the death shriekers at all.
They are good for killing monsters, but not always monster cav (st8 is only -5 to saves).  Template causes a panic and damn near everyone is a 10 with a reroll anymore.  Template is only st3, needs magic help to sting on anything with with 4 or a save of 4 or better.  They suck as a counter battery fire as st8 vs t7 means you need a 3plus, when you get a solid hit you need a 1 in 6 of not wounding not a 2 in 6.  Cause it will bite you in the butt.

Having said all of that let me go over the synergy idea I have found that works best.  (My play style is all about 2 things, synergy of different units working well together and mitigating my weakness and strengths of others.)

Hell Cannon holds a flank and can actual cause a very real panic on a unit (this is great for character bunkers specially skaven), as those tend to be smaller and get easier to break LD with increased body count. And it meets the need of the 1 in 6 for counter battery on all but the hardest targets.

DreadQuake while it can not hold a flank it is a massive threat and I have people throw entire armies trying to silence its gun.  The extra wounds make it hard to snipe out in 1 shot, and the slave ogre gives it some punch against raiding parties.  The quake hit while a wonder worker does not scare off alot of horde armies.  Too often opponents will just brave the checks and rush forward.  Its main power is being -3 to saves.  This helps alot in taking out cav.

Iron Demon, this bad boy takes a massive load off the DreadQuake and the Hell Cannon in the simple fact that most of the time you will be shooting from 4 to 10 shots that hit on 5+ with a massive minus to saves doing d3 wounds per.  This gun really helps when it comes to targeting problems.  If rolled right it will shred monsters, monster cav and if your lucky the odd mounted character on dragon.

09-12-2014 03:10 PM
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sam585
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RE: 2500 No-Comp Castlesam585 09-12-2014

27 blunders is alot of points, but it is likely they are going to make it due to how low of a threat they are in the early game, and you need to invest in alot of ranged damage to wipe that unit out.

Dont run your wizards in your infernal blocks any type of miscast that damages them will be very costly to you.

Best thing to do is just start playing games with your list to get a feeling for it.

This post was last modified: 09-12-2014 07:19 PM by sam585.

09-12-2014 07:17 PM
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Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed
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Post: #17
RE: 2500 No-Comp CastleVantraxx the Thrice Cursed 09-20-2014

I like your new list. It is very solid. I usually play 3k but our lists are very similar. I like the chalice on a daemonsmith, nothing beats the dirty factor but the charmed shield and dispel scroll combo is also very solid.


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09-20-2014 05:10 AM
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