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Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept Feedback
Author MessageOrc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept Feedback
Admiral
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Post: #1
Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAdmiral 10-03-2016

After a handful of animal-inspired Elf knight/character heads have been sculpted, the plan is to turn to Orc slaves, for which there are no suitable models. All Orc miniatures out there portray free, proud and independent Orcs, as rowdy and raw as they are. Yet to enslave Orcs one would have to break their wills and render them less than whole. Mutilations, whipping, shackling, torture, isolation and oppression would be as much a part of it as malnutrition, exhaustion and endless labour would be. Because if the end result is anything else than a crippled spirit obedident to its infernal masters and unable to raise the defiant cry of rebellion and Orcish war, the enslavement must be a failure.

The idea is to make 5 different one-piece bodies with 5 or possibly 7 loose heads accompaniant. Hand weapons only, with possibly a few armour scraps on their weapon arms. Any shields and suchlike upgrades would have to be solved by the customers' kitbashing and converting. If the kit proves popular, it is possible the Orc slave theme will be revisited with some oddball ideas which are less rank-and-file and more one-off personages. This will be an exercise in scale and keeping symmetry etc. on the level across several rank and file models, as a preparation for some evil dwarf rank-and-filers planned down the road. The advantage with Orcs is that even if scale and size veers off the mark despite efforts, no one will notice nor care.

What do you think about the below concept? Any ideas of your own to add into the mix? Feedback is as welcome as ever. Happy


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This post was last modified: 10-03-2016 08:45 AM by Admiral.

10-03-2016 08:36 AM
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackBloodbeard 10-03-2016

Fantastic!


10-03-2016 08:49 AM
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Dînadan
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackDînadan 10-03-2016

Nice work.  Would it be worth arming all of them with picks, shovels and other mining equipment as hand weapons only to show how ill-equipped they are?


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackJackswift 10-03-2016

These are well done concepts.  Seems to me these sketches would have done well in a recent contest Happy Takes Hat off.   Though your actual entry is as good.  Re these, they fit the slave Orc theme much better than anything currently out there.  I love the gladiator look of a few of the models especially.  That is a very fitting historical type to pull from for slave units.  Nicely done!

10-03-2016 10:26 AM
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackFuggit Khan 10-03-2016

Nice concept...especially since I spent this past weekend on an entire TV series binge of watching both seasons of Rome (lots of slaves to be seen, which made me ponder our CD brethren).
As for feedback:
1) Perhaps not make a model with chopped off toes/fingers? I like the concept, but some people may be reluctant to buy such a model (if they intend to have an armed slave unit, etc)...easy enough for a gamer to cut off the digits themselves if that is a look they desire.
2) Maybe large nose rings that are chained to their limbs/waist? Such as the nose rings in oxen which are tugged on to force them to 'move along'.
3) Have some of their wounds stitched up...just as the Romans did with their gladiators. After all, despite their ill treatment, they are still valuable property.
4) You can always geld them too Shock


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAdmiral 10-03-2016

Thank you kindly, folks! Great to hear. Takes Hat off

@Dînadan: I thought about it at planning-out stage, but decided against it. The right tool for the right task and all that. Evil Dwarfs would be well aware of that rule if nothing else. Still, tool slaves may come way later on. Smuggled into character kits if nothing else.

@Jackswift: Thanks! Virtually no other historical slave warrior looks had anything of value to offer for these infernal Dwarfs' living weapons and meatshields, but you can always trust the Romans to turn out something that looks just right.

@Fuggit Khan: Highly useful tips!

1) Very good point, yet apart from stark utter cruelty (and some fingers and toes being hard to reach and cut out in whitemetal fists and feet) there is a reference playing heavily here, to Reek in a Song of Ice and Fire. Those chapters were disgusting to read (also they were little enjoyable at all, but what the heck). And disgusting is the look sought after here, for grimdark reasons. I'm sorry, but I'll gamble on shock value, historical basis (eg. a large number of Greek prisoners of war, found by Alexander's host in the eastern Achaemenid empire, showed up to have been turned into mutilated grotesques by the victors, their captors, who rendered the enemy losers and slaves less than human) and popular reference alone balancing up somewhat from those made understandably too nauseous to want the minis. I view it as an experiment in the early stages of building up a range, just like the War Booty/Taming kits were a trial of Czech caster Jan Kral's confident statement and friendly mockery to me (he wasn't convinced by the statue sculpt) that female character minis sold about 10 times as much as male ones - so I put the thesis that sex sells to the test, since it easily was made appropriate for those kits' themes. It remains yet to be seen whether any substance lay in those claims. Tongue Wink
2) Excellent idea! It will be implemented. Actual nose rings could show up on 2-3 of the heads, too.
3) Indeed! Once again, great idea that will be carried out.
4) And you just said not to cut off their digits... Hobgoblin


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This post was last modified: 10-03-2016 06:56 PM by Admiral.

10-03-2016 04:30 PM
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Abecedar
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAbecedar 10-03-2016

not much more to add.   I definitely like the idea of tools or make-shift weapons more than "proper" weapons.


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackCarcearion 10-06-2016

Awesome! I cant wait to see how these guys look once they get started. I especially like the one arm chained behind his back design, and the ox nose ring idea. But it occurred to me this troop of slave orcs was actually missing something pretty vital, a slave-master. I think a especially cruel and nasty looking Hobgoblin (with a reeeaallly long whip or slave prod) would fit the bill nicely - or if you feel like their inst room for that in this kit maybe a separate set with a Hobgoblin slave master with a whip and a pair of two other Hob's with spears to "help them along" and make them think twice about rushing the slave-master.


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10-06-2016 10:20 AM
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAbecedar 10-06-2016

Ditto to that


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackTertius 10-06-2016

They'd be easier to control shackled together in pairs.

And what are hobbles? As in: "hobbled".

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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAdmiral 10-07-2016

@Carcearion: Thanks! Indeed they do. In the 9th Age, Orc Slaves can take musicians, which obviously could be a count-as slavedriver. Very good ideas! More on it below.

@Tertius: Indeed! But if I somehow got them cast in shackled pairs, those pairs would be obligatory and standard (i.e. the same pairs repeated over and over unless someone converted them). I'd love to make them as chain gangs, but it's probably best to convert one such oneself with the use of some jeweller's chain between ankles, and leave a link about it where selling takes place to inspire others.

Hobbles might be Hobgoblins. Happy

Also, from PM since it is most relevant to the discussion:

Carcearion Wrote:
As much as I would like to see them sooner then later I really think a slave driver kit is the way to go. However I really feel like Hobs are allot harder to come by right now then CD so I'd recommend doing primarily Hobs and probably just the one CD overseer (a cool whip or scourge bit and anyone can make a overseer that fits perfectly into their army, but Hob slave drivers are a basically completely new and quite hard to convert since no one is making Hob models).


Good point. At the moment I've started with a single Hobgobbo slavedriver along with the 5 Orc bodies (7 heads). However, what it will all come down to in the end for the slave Orcs will be how many bodies/heads fits into a single standard sized whitemetal mould over at Griffin Moulds. I'd be surprised if more than 10 fit in total, if that many (all extra bodies & heads above the original 5 sculpts will be resin masterclones from Zealot).

The question then is whether to make do with but a single Hobgoblin taskmaster and to put him in the same mould and kit/s as the Orcs for savings. Or whether to make a dedicated slavedriver kit in separate mould (maybe in resin production cast by Zealot).

I'm leaning toward the latter, even if it'll take more time to do (not immensely much longer, though, as long as it's merely Hobgoblin slavedrivers concerned). Yet if one is to make a dedicated slavedriver kit, how to go about it? One aim is to fit the whole little slavedriver kit into a single mould to keep costs and price down if possible, and if it's going to be cast by Zealot then numbers need to be low. It'd be 3-4 miniatures maximum for one mould (War Booty price level) or up to 6 miniatures if spread out on two moulds for one kit (Taming of the Wildman price level), I believe, though one could have it made by Czech Custom Made Miniatures which deal in smaller moulds, cast well and are affordable, though take longer time with everything they do.

So, how would a separate slavedriver kit look like? Should it be Hobgoblin slavedrivers only, with e.g. one or two whip gits and the rest with spears and blades to prod the Orcs along? Or should it be one evil Dwarf overseer, and the rest Hobgoblin taskmasters? My guess is that most people would really like to see an infernal Dwarf slavedriver in such a kit. Or do anyone have other ideas on how it could be done?

Please note that I cannot make a mancatcher no matter how much I want to. Too airy and flimsy for me to ever achieve one without it looking way too thick and clumsy. But maybe some other evil dwarf producers such as 3D-sculpting Lost Kingdoms could provide one if demand is high? Or collectors could just take that bit from the GW Skaven Giant Rat/Rat Ogre kit and convert.

Also, unless the Elf archer kit proves an outright runaway success beyond the most optimistic expectations, the Orc Slaves are likely to go up for funding by Kickstarter. But if so, then no campaign until more or less all sculpts are finished; no one should get to buy the pig in the bag so to speak.


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This post was last modified: 10-07-2016 02:50 AM by Admiral.

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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackCarcearion 10-07-2016

Lol I know I have already weighed in a ton on this but I'm standing by the separate slave driver kit. Something else worth considering is doing it as an all Hob kit but include conversion bits for people to make a CD Overseer out of their own miniatures. A selection of whip and scourge hands, probably a pointing hand, and maybe a grasping hand jewelry chain could easily be glued into, Ooh and possibly a dangling Orc skull to toss on a belt or some fun such accessories Tongue it would be allot of fun to see all the various model ranges outfitted with that stuff, it would be a veritable rainbow of evil.

As to a crowd funding campaign I have to say I would be right their with support for any and all the CD related kits you have planned! For allot of your planned projects I have often found my self wishing their was something more I could do to support your work (particularity your Hob Head and CD Head conversion kits). Takes Hat off Cheers!


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This post was last modified: 10-07-2016 11:24 AM by Carcearion.

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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackTertius 10-11-2016

Admiral Wrote:

@Tertius: Indeed! But if I somehow got them cast in shackled pairs, those pairs would be obligatory and standard (i.e. the same pairs repeated over and over unless someone converted them). I'd love to make them as chain gangs...

Here is a thought...
What if each one was like the ball and chain guy with a chain attached to one ankle? But at the other end of the chain was a half-sphere?  Two orcs chained to one sphere once assembled. But the modeler can mix and match the pairings because they glue together at the sphere?

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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackTheHoodedMan 10-11-2016

Very good work on the sketches.
As Fuggit said amputations could easily made by hobbyists themselves if they want to do something.
Legs posing: There could be some variety on the legs posing, especially one with a broader stance in a more battle ready/ defensive position.
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackEnjoysrandom 10-18-2016

Looks great as always, Don't ever stop making great stuff Admiral.
I would go with hobgoblin slavers, tasks too menial for Dawi'Zharr.
The idea for practical weapons is a good idea, slaves would fight with what they use. Picks, shovels and the like, a warrior not a slave fights with a sword.
Nose and earrings for chains of obedience also work well as do fingers and toes taken as punishments, but a full hand is too useful to take I reckon.... well maybe one....

Historical brutality should set your stuff apart. I am sure your work will appeal to and sell to the people on CDO.
As for any ideas I could toss around,
I wouldn't clothe them except for loincloths and chains? (maybe one warn out boot?),
I wouldn't give them hair? (depending on your lore they don't grow hair, but also, hair can breed things like lice and what not, shave it off),
Branding the flesh probably couldn't hurt? (hard thing though if you don't want to use the Hashut symbol),
I don't know how much "fluff" stuff you wanted to make for this but to use the idea of shackling two together, maybe you could make some chains that would hang between nose/earrings that the customer could put on as they desired?


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackGrimstonefire 10-19-2016

Great ideas.  I very much had plans to do exactly this many moons ago.

I would humbly suggest that you might replace all weapons with massively oversized mining tools.  As opposed to hand weapons or pit fighting weapons.

Or some pit-type weapons if they have had amputations.

Very much looking forwards to seeing these!!!

Also perhaps some massive stitched up scars.


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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAdmiral 10-29-2016

Thanks for all the support and feedback, folks! All of it is being considered carefully, and whether or not it will be acted upon every single idea is worthwhile for Orc slave miniatures. Takes Hat off

In particular, the demand for menial tools has improved the concept. Amputated limbs and digits are part of the core concept and reason I want to do these models (and must be there), but things like armaments are in flux and always open for revision. The plan is to make the Orcs with gladiator-esque prosthetic weapons as seen on the sketch above, and the rest with tools (which ones will be revealed in due time - my brother had an ingenious idea for one of the thralls). So the image striven for is one of a hodgepodge of mining slaves and pit fighter slaves tossed together and whipped along on the battlefield.

@Carcearion: Excellent ideas! Thanks for them, and thank you kindly for willingness to support. It means a lot. These ideas will be considered particularly carefully. It's possible that any Chaos Dwarf slavedriver bits or model might come at a much later date, and restrict this big wave for Greenskins only.

@Tertius: It's a great idea, thanks for it! I've sketched and turned it over a lot in thoughts, and although there are a couple or three doable ways even for an amateur like me to maybe achieve it without setting in stone which orcs come in which sequence in a chain gang, the downsides (place in mould by protruding chains, difficulties aligning the chains and ankle shackles perfectly to hide gaps, and bits left when excess shackles are snapped off) has brought forth the decision to not do chains after all. Chances are big I couldn't do it full justice, and in any case the gaps at joining ankle shackles means that hobbyists can as well do it with better results both aesthetically and for ranking-up using jewelry chains.

However, your idea of chain gangs will live on in a fashion, because I will be sure to include a chain gang recommendation and an illustrated tutorial, or at least a link to such a tutorial, wherever I sell these online.

Thanks a lot for such a good idea. Takes Hat off

@TheHoodedMan: Amputations there will be, because no compromises with the sought-after cruelty. Tongue

Good point indeed on leg posing and battle stance! I wish to avoid all too wild poses since they can easily scream of proud and independent Orcs, but there will be at least one obvious fighting pose in there.

@Enjoysrandom: Thank you kindly. Good ideas!

@Grimstonefire: You might want to attempt it anyway. Wink

Mining tools it will be, though all but one will be held one-handed. Though some pit fighting weapons will remain. And stitched up massive scars for sure.


Alright folks, great feedback! You've improved the concept for sure. 12 heads for 6 planned bodies.

It's begun. Hashut!


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This post was last modified: 10-29-2016 05:30 PM by Admiral.

10-29-2016 05:28 PM
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Bloodbeard
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackBloodbeard 10-30-2016

Will the slave heads go for sale as a kit on its own? Or only with complete sculpts.

The heads are excellent as conversion parts as well, for old GW plastic orcs. Throw these on and some chains here and there. Freaking cool regiment.

I have nothing to use this for. But I want to make a slace unit now. Very character full heads.


10-30-2016 02:42 AM
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackAdmiral 10-30-2016

Very good question. Is there widespread demand for a slave head bitz kit? They were not intended as such originally, but it's just a matter of resin mastercast-cloning them for both bitz, and to go along with complete sculpts.

So, do people want a bitz kit? It'll take lower priority than the full regimental blisters, but should be managable. Especially if we'll have to resort to crowdfunding. Be warned though, that I might resort to a dirty trick and for starters only sell separate head kits together with full body slave Orc blisters (which contain its own heads). Only later to maybe open up into simple bits selling alone. This is because the full sculpts need to haul their own weight and regain their investment (and head bitz may compete a bit with them) but much more importantly because I want to stamp this uncompromising oppressive cruelty mark onto the Orc slave niche thoroughly, so any customers should positively walk away with at least some full body Orc slaves to mix into his otherwise converted plastic Orcs with slave heads. Still, 6 orc slave bodies will consume 6 heads, leaving a total of 18 left over for conversions if this becomes the case. Here, the impression sought after carries much more weight than the economical reasons (which might actually be unfounded).

Also, although inbefore putting up comparison pictures, I believe these heads vary insignificantly from the GW orc head reference I've been using, bar one or two mask heads (but who cares about that on Orcs anyway?). They're not made for bitz use although that's a secondary motif behind having so many head choices, but they'll probably fit in without much problem. Pictures to come later for you to judge.


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This post was last modified: 10-30-2016 07:43 AM by Admiral.

10-30-2016 04:16 AM
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Carcearion
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RE: Orc Slaves of Ancient Times Concept FeedbackCarcearion 10-30-2016

I think the idea of a kit with an excess of bits to use to make a converted squad is a great way to go about it! Especially if you also throw in a few extra arms and such (the for-mentioned mining tools and gladiatorial weapons together would really fill this out). Grabbing these guys to mix and match with a box of orc boys sounds like a great idea and a good investment for a collector who will probably want an awful lot more then just 6-ish orc slaves.

I'm sure the heads alone would probably do just fine, but I personally like the idea of an orc slave kit just coming with lots of extra bits for conversions allot better.

Don't forget our Hobgoblin slave masters though Hobgoblin


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10-30-2016 06:49 AM
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