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Slev's army book
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slev
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Post: #1
Slev's army bookslev 09-01-2008

Hi all,

I've been working on this for some time before I joined the board. I've put together a PDF of the first rough of my CD Army Book. Well, the rules section anyway. Background will follow, although this will be easier for me to deal with.

I'd be grateful for any feedback folks can give me. The list itself is a touch "everything and the kitchen sink" at the moment, and the magic items and such are likely horribly miss-costed.

You can download the PDF from my file-store here:

Slev's CD Army Book

ETA: fixed hyperlink error


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Slev
;-}

My Projects:
Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs
HeroQuest: Revised Edition

This post was last modified: 09-01-2008 11:15 AM by slev.

09-01-2008 04:26 AM
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slev
Bull Centaur Lord
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Posts: 611 - Aug 2008
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Post: #2
RE: Slev's army bookslev 09-04-2008

In light of a lack of feedback on my list, I've a new version which is much better and has some actual background. This is available here.

Again, I'd really like some feedback please, although I am much much happier with this version.


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Slev
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HeroQuest: Revised Edition
09-04-2008 11:48 AM
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slev
Bull Centaur Lord
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Post: #3
RE: Slev's army bookslev 09-10-2008

Well, after a resounding round of feedback Wink I've updated the book. It is now effectively complete, although I may add more background to add later. It just needs play-testing & prettying-up.

The new link is here.

Now I just need the Dwarf bits I ordered to arrive & I can start my army...


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Slev
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HeroQuest: Revised Edition
09-10-2008 08:08 AM
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Xander
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Post: #4
RE: Slev's army bookXander 09-10-2008

Odd that this has been overlooked.

Usually Grim will take a look... *pokes Grim *

I am at work, but I might check it out later!


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09-10-2008 08:31 AM
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Grimstonefire
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Post: #5
RE: Slev's army bookGrimstonefire 09-10-2008

A few bits.  If I haven't commented on it its not necessarily because I think its finished, just that I don't have time at the moment.

Chaos Armour?  Is this the same armour as the Warriors of Chaos?  I.e. it welds onto the skin and cannot be taken off.

BC herd?  You’ve used herd and pack, makes them sound too much like cattle.

Raging Bull - Bull Centaurs use weapons and armour as if they were Infantry, but move as Cavalry.     Are they cavalry or not?  Clarify in the rules.

Blunderbuss isn’t great, but balanced

Boar Centaurs are barely sentient?  Sentient means can react to the outside world (my understanding of it anyway).  So barely sentient means they must be the most dumb animals in the Warhammer world.

Typically these are men of the north, the likes of the Hung and the Khull, or any of a dozen tribes. === Kul

To become a Chieftain, a Hobgoblin needs three things: luck, a large nose, and the ability to heard cats.  ????  Explain Wink

Diruis
Axes of the Bull – I would say two hand weapons, each of which has +1 strength (making him Strength 6 overall).  You HAVE to use a great weapon with both hands.  As they are special weapons anyway it won’t make a difference

‘Rules lawyer’ says:  Blessed Visage: The Character has the lower quarters of a Bull Centaur. Gain +3 Movement. You may not take a mount.
So can a BC lord or hero have this upgrade?  Logic says no, rules say yes.

Ancient Enemies – You cannot change the rules for Dwarfs

High Priest of Hashut – I’d give him an option for a great weapon.

5 Lord options may be pushing it a little.  I can see each of them has a clear purpose, so that isn’t a problem in itself, its more whether they deserve to be Lord or Hero.

I’d move the Khan to Hero and drop the chieftan.


“Up to one Chaos Dwarf Noble or Bull Centaur Chieftain may be upgraded to a Battle Standard Bearer”  change to ‘One Chaos Dwarf Hero or Bull Centaur Chieftain may be upgraded to a Battle Standard Bearer’.

I’d drop the points cost from the stats for each unit in the list, its unnecessary repetition.  Just put it above, and any additional points for upgrading command etc put below  (as you did)

Engineer Lodge.  Repeating pistols would come out at 15 pts per model..?  IMO a CD with a brace of pistols should be 12pts.

Acolytes.  I’d change the Priest name, too confusing with the Hero.  Too many options IMO.  I’d give them 3 cults to choose from.  Fluffwise some cults would be bigger than others, hence being seen more often on the battlefield.  I’d increase their base cost to 9, maybe even 10 with MR(1).

Boar Centaurs and Wolf Riders is a very fast CD list, even though neither count towards core.  Not sure I’d give them additional hand weapons as an option.

Immortals for 24 points (before weapons!)!?!?!?  Make them 12 points.  Paragon I’d make +12 pts.

Bull Centaur.  20pts per model IMO.  You have to pay for the privilege of speed.

Is the Juggernaut a mobile weapons platform?  Or some sort of sentient chariot?  Is it a warmachine?  You need to clarify whether it needs crew (i.e. a Boar Centaur).  Its confusing things putting the bolt thrower in the same entry as the juggernaut.  If you really want this create a separate special choice of a bolt thrower mounted on a juggernaut (which IMO shouldn’t be pushed by anything).

War rocket:
change name from Engineer to Rocket Team, so that the profile reflects the unit.

War Engine:  WAY too confusing, and unnecessarily complicated.  IMO you can’t combine that many options.  Drop the Death Rocket, move the Earthshaker to Rare.  Basically make the unit only for swivel guns, possibly treating them the same as war rocket teams (2 models per base etc).

Order of the Bull Guard.  Fluff confusion here, as an Order would be like 1000 of them etc?  I’d make this entry unit size 1+.  Give them the same profile as the Immortals (changing the name though).  You need to change the name of either these mounts or the Lord’s one, otherwise the riders could be 1+ armour save, unless that is what you wanted?   I’d also make the mounts Strength 5.  Put the base size on here.

The various levels of machinist is an interesting idea, but it would be better to have slightly different names so its not confusing.

Personally I’d drop the Kollossus and put the Earthshaker here.

Overall there’s a lot of work to do.  You have roughly the right amount of choices in core, special and rare, but you’ve only done this by having many sub options per unit.  This isn’t the way Warhammer works, so you will need to drop a few things.

My biggest problem with the list itself is the level of speed.  Speed is the single most important factor for balancing the CD list IMO.  With the Boar Centaurs, Bull Centaurs, Wolf Riders and Taurus riders you have a very fast list.

The way its been written needs to be cleared up.  You have a lot of fluff and name confusions.  Take another look at list and rename as necessary so that no name is used twice, anywhere.  You will then need to update the special rules and fluff descriptions.

Create a separate fluff profile for everything, including mounts.  I.e. you’ve written a combined rules and mini description for all the Warrior Brethern.  Split this off into clearly defined areas, and include the profile for each of them underneath.  The Warrior Bretheren is the name of a Core unit, so it can't be a header for the section.

Overall I like several parts of your list.  The Obelisk idea (although IMO the wrong name), is very interesting and worth developing.  I must admit when I read ‘Warrior Brethren’ I was hoping for something like the Black Templars…


Looking to buy a FW 2011 Hellsmith?  I am sure to sell it cheaper than pretty much anywhere!

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This post was last modified: 09-10-2008 04:20 PM by Grimstonefire.

09-10-2008 04:10 PM
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cornixt
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Post: #6
RE: Slev's army bookcornixt 09-10-2008

Not sure how I missed this the first time it was posted.  I skipped most of the fluff and went to the rules.
The Idol rules are a bit confused when it comes to shooting - who receives the 4+ save? Is it a ward save? The spell effects are far too strong, I know the casting levels are high but they shouldn't be so strong since it becomes an all-or-nothing effect. The effects of destroying the Idol are are bit convoluted too. Having something that ALWAYS does something, overriding things that ALWAYS protect against that something, is awkward in game terms.
Artillerist - not sure what the word "either" means both of the times it is used. The columns of text on the page look a bit mixed up.
Lammasu - shouldn't he get the magic resistance too?
Lore of Hashut - Should have at least one spell that can be cast with a single dice.
Obelisks - very interesting, definite potential
High Priest - Gar! Should always be Ld10! Points look wrong
Skipped the rest so far (no time), except I don't like the DoW options, seems messy and potentially confusing with all the army book updates.


There's a lot more in the wiki than you think, check out the wiki contents

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09-10-2008 04:42 PM
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Xander
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Post: #7
RE: Slev's army bookXander 09-10-2008

Sentience is consciousness. Homo sapiens are (arguably) the only sentient beings we know of.


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09-10-2008 05:01 PM
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slev
Bull Centaur Lord
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Post: #8
RE: Slev's army bookslev 09-11-2008

Thx guys, a lot of food for thought. It seems some artefacts I'd thought fixed hadn't saved - Doh!

I'll go through & address things I think need to be discussed later, after breakfast. For now though:
Sentience is conscious self-awareness.


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HeroQuest: Revised Edition
09-11-2008 02:03 AM
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slev
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Post: #9
RE: Slev's army bookslev 09-11-2008

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Chaos Armour?  Is this the same armour as the Warriors of Chaos?  I.e. it welds onto the skin and cannot be taken off.

That's the stuff, gifted by the Chaos Gods.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
BC herd?  You’ve used herd and pack, makes them sound too much like cattle.

That was my intent. If folks think it sucks, I can be convinced to change it.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Blunderbuss isn’t great, but balanced

Need they be better? As they are a rank & file unit, we obviously don't want them too OTT. Perhaps S4 or AP with an appropriate increase in points?

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Boar Centaurs are barely sentient?  Sentient means can react to the outside world (my understanding of it anyway).  So barely sentient means they must be the most dumb animals in the Warhammer world.

As dealt with earlier, Sentience is conscious self-awareness. "I think therefore I am" is a sentient statement.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
To become a Chieftain, a Hobgoblin needs three things: luck, a large nose, and the ability to heard cats.  ????  Explain Wink

Yes, I'm very happy with that quote. And I do believe that commanding Hobgoblins will, as the saying goes, be "like herding cats".

Grimstonefire Wrote:
‘Rules lawyer’ says:  Blessed Visage: The Character has the lower quarters of a Bull Centaur. Gain +3 Movement. You may not take a mount.
So can a BC lord or hero have this upgrade?  Logic says no, rules say yes.

Well, it says "may not be taken by Bull Centaurs", and they are BCs so the rules say "no"

Grimstonefire Wrote:
High Priest of Hashut – I’d give him an option for a great weapon.

I've given him the Temple Staff instead. The idea is that the three "pillars" of CD society each have a slightly different selection of weapons to add character.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
I’d drop the points cost from the stats for each unit in the list, its unnecessary repetition.  Just put it above, and any additional points for upgrading command etc put below  (as you did)

This is a lay-out artefact, part of the "prettying up" I need to do.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Engineer Lodge.  Repeating pistols would come out at 15 pts per model..?  IMO a CD with a brace of pistols should be 12pts.

Err, 11 by the figures I have here. I can put it up a point.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Acolytes.  I’d change the Priest name, too confusing with the Hero.  Too many options IMO.  I’d give them 3 cults to choose from.  Fluffwise some cults would be bigger than others, hence being seen more often on the battlefield.  I’d increase their base cost to 9, maybe even 10 with MR(1).

Fair point, but which Cults do we keep?

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Boar Centaurs and Wolf Riders is a very fast CD list, even though neither count towards core.  Not sure I’d give them additional hand weapons as an option.

This would also tone down the gits, which is no bad thing really.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Immortals for 24 points (before weapons!)!?!?!?  Make them 12 points.  Paragon I’d make +12 pts.

I'd actually changed this to 13 pts earlier, but it didn't save. This was done via a comparison to Iron Breakers & Hammers in the dwarf book.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Bull Centaur.  20pts per model IMO.  You have to pay for the privilege of speed.

Fair Enough.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Is the Juggernaut a mobile weapons platform?  Or some sort of sentient chariot?  Is it a warmachine?  You need to clarify whether it needs crew (i.e. a Boar Centaur).  Its confusing things putting the bolt thrower in the same entry as the juggernaut.  If you really want this create a separate special choice of a bolt thrower mounted on a juggernaut (which IMO shouldn’t be pushed by anything).

The CD Juggernaut is the huge siege-tower thing, isn't it?

Grimstonefire Wrote:
War Engine:  WAY too confusing, and unnecessarily complicated.  IMO you can’t combine that many options.  Drop the Death Rocket, move the Earthshaker to Rare.  Basically make the unit only for swivel guns, possibly treating them the same as war rocket teams (2 models per base etc).

A valid point. I've obviously been reading too many 40K Codices.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Order of the Bull Guard.  Fluff confusion here, as an Order would be like 1000 of them etc?  I’d make this entry unit size 1+.  Give them the same profile as the Immortals (changing the name though).  You need to change the name of either these mounts or the Lord’s one, otherwise the riders could be 1+ armour save, unless that is what you wanted?   I’d also make the mounts Strength 5.  Put the base size on here.

The intent was for these to be cavalry, and heavy, if slow cavalry at that.
1+ unit size would be contary to established Warhammer principals for cav.
They effectively have barding built in. If this is too confusing, I'll just make every single one barded and have done Wink
With the naming, has anyone a better name for a large bull-mount than Taurus, in order to avoid confusion?
Chaos Armour or shield upgrade on a Taurus is 2+ Armour. both is 1+ armour, but keep in mind these are then 46 point models!

Grimstonefire Wrote:
My biggest problem with the list itself is the level of speed.  Speed is the single most important factor for balancing the CD list IMO.  With the Boar Centaurs, Bull Centaurs, Wolf Riders and Taurus riders you have a very fast list.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
True. This is why I barred Bull Guard from Marching, making them effectively fast on the charge only. these are also an expensive Elite unit. If it's still a problem, we can slow them a touch.
With no good way to boost the Ld of the Boar Centaurs, their Stupidity should slow them down, but again, these can be tweaked.

The way its been written needs to be cleared up.  You have a lot of fluff and name confusions.  Take another look at list and rename as necessary so that no name is used twice, anywhere.  You will then need to update the special rules and fluff descriptions.

Easily done

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Create a separate fluff profile for everything, including mounts.  I.e. you’ve written a combined rules and mini description for all the Warrior Brethern.  Split this off into clearly defined areas, and include the profile for each of them underneath.  The Warrior Bretheren is the name of a Core unit, so it can't be a header for the section.

You see, here I've been mimicking the format of the official books. If it's not working without the advanced formatting, I can re-jig.

Grimstonefire Wrote:
Overall I like several parts of your list.  The Obelisk idea (although IMO the wrong name), is very interesting and worth developing.  I must admit when I read ‘Warrior Brethren’ I was hoping for something like the Black Templars…

Sorry to disappoint. People seem to like the Obelisks. Has anyone a better name for them?

cornixt Wrote:
High Priest - Gar! Should always be Ld10! Points look wrong

Wrong as in too high or two low?
And how would you adjust them with Ld10?


--
Slev
;-}

My Projects:
Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs
HeroQuest: Revised Edition

This post was last modified: 09-11-2008 07:40 AM by slev.

09-11-2008 07:02 AM
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slev
Bull Centaur Lord
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Post: #10
RE: Slev's army bookslev 09-12-2008

OK, I've made a variety of adjustments based on the above suggestions & feedback.

Some of the slightly ropey lay-out is still present, I'll fix that next, I just want to see if I'm going the right way or not for now.

I've posted another version here, which is up-to-date.

Points I'm currently considering for the next version:
Renaming "Obelisks", but I've not come up with anything better.
Splitting the Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers & the Assault Tower into two related entries for clarity.

So, once more, a request for feedback please.


--
Slev
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My Projects:
Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs
HeroQuest: Revised Edition
09-12-2008 05:35 AM
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