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Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-12-2009 09:38 PM

Hashut, the "Father of Darkness", the creature who is worshipped by the Chaos Dwarfs, and for whom the Chaos Dwarfs imagine enslaving the world, could very well be an evil Old One. The biblical Satan of the Old World. An Old One who actually brought Chaos to the Old World.

While the Old Ones cultivated the lives of their creations, I can imagine that they would do so for various reasons, and certainly they've done it before. However, what if one of the Old Ones didn't like the idea of coexisting peacefully with their creations, obviously lesser than themselves. In an effort to seal off the Old World from his more peaceful brethren, what if this Old One damaged the gate, so that chaos would spill forth and block the Old Ones from returning. In return, this Old One sought out a race to make itself felt across the Old World. It obviously believes itself to be much greater than it's creations. It seeks out what it believes to be the more willing of the races to worship it.

The warped men and beasts of Chaos are all wrong. Certainly this great creator is better than the varied Gods of Chaos, but those men see only the opium of the gifts. The Elves and Dwarfs, and certainly the Lizardmen are out, they're too tied to the Old Ones ways. Man is out, huddling in it's caves for warmth and protection from Chaos, an incomplete race. However, there, among the Chaos that's spilled like a stain, is a small group that is not only embittered by now against the Old ways, but withstanding the drug like qualities of Chaos.

He could use this race to enslave the other races to his will, he could use this race to even bind chaos and prove his ascendancy over that roiling mass of everything and nothing. He would have them build massive Ziggarats in the style of the Old Ones, but more impressive and grand.
He believes in strength and bringing others to his will, he is known as Hashut!


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Joshmohr - 06-13-2009 01:33 AM

i agree, He is the "Warhammer Satan"


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-13-2009 03:41 AM

Probably not. Chaos Dwarfs are a fairly minor race - it's unlikely their relatively obscure god would be made the Big Bad of the whole setting.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-13-2009 12:37 PM

Thommy H Wrote:
Probably not. Chaos Dwarfs are a fairly minor race - it's unlikely their relatively obscure god would be made the Big Bad of the whole setting.


They don't receive a lot of mention, but they seem to be in the middle of a lot of events.

Then again, the relatively lesser race of the Greenskins was brought to the fore in this edition's background, making them an older race than Elves, Men, and Dwarfs. Having been able to arrive on their own, outside of the Old One's plans, to the Old World.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - TwilightCo - 06-13-2009 12:38 PM

Hm, If dedwrekka was implying that Hashut is a crazy ancient Slaan then I have to say that I like the idea. Mostly because I haven't heard it before... which rocks! Happy

That could also explain the the BCs and why they are venerated as they are.  They resemble the now missing Zoats.

Regardless of the accuracy of my understanding of the original argument here I will be quite amused for the day.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - snowblizz - 06-13-2009 02:23 PM

TwilightCo Wrote:
Hm, If dedwrekka was implying that Hashut is a crazy ancient Slaan then I have to say that I like the idea. Mostly because I haven't heard it before... which rocks! Happy

That could also explain the the BCs and why they are venerated as they are.  They resemble the now missing Zoats.

Regardless of the accuracy of my understanding of the original argument here I will be quite amused for the day.


Not Slaan. Old One. Slaan were servants to the Old Ones, they are infinitely more powerful beings, or so one would think at least. We don't really *know* much.
As an example, most of the elven gods are probably Old Ones originally. Dwarf Ancestor Gods, most likely the same. Hashut doesn't doesn't have to be The Big Bad, Chaos already has that gig, even though he(?) would be an Old One who is less "nice" than the others.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-13-2009 02:45 PM

dedwrekka Wrote:

They don't receive a lot of mention, but they seem to be in the middle of a lot of events.


Like what?

Quote:
Then again, the relatively lesser race of the Greenskins was brought to the fore in this edition's background, making them an older race than Elves, Men, and Dwarfs. Having been able to arrive on their own, outside of the Old One's plans, to the Old World.


Orcs and Goblins have always been one of the main armies in Warhammer. They've been in the starter box three times (4th Edition, 6th Edition, Battle for Skull Pass) and the 6th Edition rulebook chose them (along with The Empire) as their central artistic theme. The revelation that they were "spores" in 7th Edition is neither here nor there.

Point is, Chaos Dwarfs are an obscure, semi-forgotten race and even when they were fully supported, they were a niche army only tangentially involved in the main events of the setting. Hashut is just another Chaos God - there are many others beside the big four.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-13-2009 03:50 PM

Thommy H Wrote:

dedwrekka Wrote:

They don't receive a lot of mention, but they seem to be in the middle of a lot of events.


Like what?

Creating the Black Orcs, Grimgor couldn't exist without them.
Selling the Hellcannons to the Chaos tribesmen.
Raiding and trading along the silver road.
Being the reason behind the Ogre Leadbelchers
One of their slave uprisings likely led to the surge of orc activity that created the pact between nations that would eventually become the Empire.

Quote:

Quote:
Then again, the relatively lesser race of the Greenskins was brought to the fore in this edition's background, making them an older race than Elves, Men, and Dwarfs. Having been able to arrive on their own, outside of the Old One's plans, to the Old World.


Orcs and Goblins have always been one of the main armies in Warhammer. They've been in the starter box three times (4th Edition, 6th Edition, Battle for Skull Pass) and the 6th Edition rulebook chose them (along with The Empire) as their central artistic theme. The revelation that they were "spores" in 7th Edition is neither here nor there.

I wasn't so much talking about them being spores, more about them coming to the Warhammer World of their own volition and power, and being a thorn in the sides of the other races even when the Old Ones were around. Pushing them from a more skaven like nuissance and consistent background stance, to a race that has amazing power.

Quote:
Point is, Chaos Dwarfs are an obscure, semi-forgotten race and even when they were fully supported, they were a niche army only tangentially involved in the main events of the setting. Hashut is just another Chaos God - there are many others beside the big four.


I think they're a lot less obscure at this point. They're mentioned many times in recent books they even have a unit in another army's book. They've recieved much more attention than previously and more than what would be considered other "fringe" armies.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-13-2009 04:14 PM

Orcs and Goblins have always been pretty much the most widespread and consistently dangerous race in the setting - they live everywhere and fight everything. It's nothing new. They're one of the most important and iconic armies, probably second only to The Empire and Chaos (in all its myriad forms).

Furthermore, Warhammer isn't about good and evil, so there's never going to be a single "villain", like Sauron or Satan. It's about survival versus destruction. It's the nature of the setting that there are many diverse and equally deadly threats coming from all sides.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-13-2009 04:28 PM

Thommy H Wrote:
Orcs and Goblins have always been pretty much the most widespread and consistently dangerous race in the setting - they live everywhere and fight everything. It's nothing new. They're one of the most important and iconic armies, probably second only to The Empire and Chaos (in all its myriad forms).

Furthermore, Warhammer isn't about good and evil, so there's never going to be a single "villain", like Sauron or Satan. It's about survival versus destruction. It's the nature of the setting that there are many diverse and equally deadly threats coming from all sides.


Actually I was looking at it from more of a storyline point. The character wouldn't be the single, sole, or even most dangerous villain in the Warhammer World, but the idea of a higher being that rebels because they wont bow down or even consider a created race equal is very iconic, and used at least once before by Games Workshop (Albeit in 40k).


RE: Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-14-2009 01:55 AM

I was going through some army books, and page 14 of the Demons of Chaos books has some interesting theories on the Old Ones after the polar gates collapsed. Suggesting that some of them may have been corrupted or possessed by Chaos.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Grimstonefire - 06-14-2009 07:13 AM

Dedwrekka makes a good point, though the progression from being an old one to being a chaos god is very radical.

Seeing as they departed at same the time the dwarfs turned into chaos dwarfs it is possible I guess that one of the old ones took pity on those that were not protected, and in choosing to protect them felt the full force of the titanic magical energy and became a god?

I actually always liked the idea that Hashut was like a primal spirit of the warhammer world, there since the dawn of time as the god of shadows.  Not sure whether this could fit into the current understanding of where gods draw their power from though (i.e. the age old arguement of if all gods are part of 'chaos', were there any before chaos came?).

Tying the god of shadows back to only the chaos dwarfs would take some work, the skaven could also worship it as well..

Either of these would make for an interesting angle on Hashut.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-14-2009 07:35 AM

Chaos wasn't created when the polar gates collapsed - it was just released into the Warhammer world. The Old Ones used the warp to travel, and used magic to perform their awesome feats, so must have had access to the Realm of Chaos. It was just safely tucked behind the gates until something went wrong.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Grimstonefire - 06-14-2009 07:43 AM

The more I think about this the more certain aspects of it seem logical.  We don't often discuss the fact that the old ones created the dwarfs, then they disappeared/ corrupted/ destroyed by the coming of chaos.  The timing of this with the creation of the CD could potentially be something worth thinking about.  

An evil old one who corrupts one of the races he created is a novel idea.  I would favour hashut being a god than a physical being in the warhammer world (the 'dug him up' fluff).


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-14-2009 07:55 AM

I doubt very much any light is ever going to be shed on any of the Old Ones. In 40K, the Old Ones are Slann. The link between the two universes is always going to be somewhere between an implication and an Easter egg, so to make a detail like this explicit means that either the Chaos Dwarfs are worshipping a Slann (maybe that explains the ziggurats?) or the "Old Ones" in the two settings are totally different creatures and there definitely, 100%, is no link between the universes.

I would bet good money that Hashut will be "a Chaos god" forever. There's no need for a better explanation: Chaos is infinite both in scope and variation. There are many lesser gods, greater daemons and everything else along a continuum from the lowliest Nurgling to the Four Brothers. It claims ownership over all things - including fire, darkness and industry - because it's just a reflection of life and reality. You don't need some crazy story to explain who and what he is.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - dedwrekka - 06-14-2009 10:03 AM

Thommy H Wrote:
Chaos wasn't created when the polar gates collapsed - it was just released into the Warhammer world. The Old Ones used the warp to travel, and used magic to perform their awesome feats, so must have had access to the Realm of Chaos. It was just safely tucked behind the gates until something went wrong.

Well, yes and no. Of course the element of pure Chaos existed before, but what we know as the Chaos Gods, Demons and that whole bit was created at the instant of the polar gates collapse. This newer version of the story is told on page 126 of the main rulebook and page 14 of Chaos Demons. It was all very sudden with the Chaos Gods gaining sentience from the races most powerful subconscious emotions and their demons being born in the thousands for each drop of pure chaos that touched the ground.

Thommy H Wrote:
I doubt very much any light is ever going to be shed on any of the Old Ones. In 40K, the Old Ones are Slann. The link between the two universes is always going to be somewhere between an implication and an Easter egg, so to make a detail like this explicit means that either the Chaos Dwarfs are worshipping a Slann (maybe that explains the ziggurats?) or the "Old Ones" in the two settings are totally different creatures and there definitely, 100%, is no link between the universes.

They are two very different races at this point. In 40k the Old Ones were originally called the Slann, but it's been implied recently (since the Necrons codex) that the Old Ones in 40k are a coalition of multiple races.

In fantasy the Slann are the primary creations of the Old Ones. As to the Old Ones themselves, we have almost nothing.

However, the means of their departure are very different between the two systems. In 40k they Old Ones departed after a lengthy war with the Necrons, many years before the Chaos Gods gained sentience (There was a long period of attack by Enlsavers between the two). While in 40k, their departure is signified by the birth of Chaos.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Thommy H - 06-14-2009 10:07 AM

I'm not saying they're the same race: I'm saying that GW has always hinted they might be, so to say "Hashut is an Old One, and he looks like this..." would close the door on that permanently. Which is why it won't happen.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - TwilightCo - 06-15-2009 12:13 PM

Regardless,

CDs existing 'neath the "Shadow of the Horned Frog" is just too unique an image to give up. I still believe that the formerly mentioned Zoats also give us an easy explanation for the 'taller than thou' Bull Centaurs as well.

In fact, I'm going to have to run with this one (I'm not sure how yet, but I will think of something!).

Sick


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Scion - 06-17-2009 10:14 AM

I like the idea of a corrupted Old One. Truly a tragedy for the Lizardmen. Maybe his is the wandering Old One, known as the lost to the Lizardmen. Driven mad by the guilt of abandoning his race, he believes that they have been wiped from the Face of the Old World. Now he seeks to take revenge and harness the powers of his enemy - Chaos!! Only by foul sacrifices may he achieve his goal. No longer can he return to the Lizardmen.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - cornixt - 06-17-2009 02:08 PM

The nice thing about the severe lack of Hashut fluff is that he can be pretty much anything you like for your army background. From a found Daemon, to a god created by CDs, to an old Dwarf ancestor, to an Old One, to Tzeentch himself.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Alric - 06-17-2009 10:13 PM

Joshmohr Wrote:
i agree, He is the "Warhammer Satan"



I like to think Hashut is more like Tolkiens "Sauron". Like Sauron, Hashut is the Dark Lord,  the Father of Darkness, his followers living on a plain of smoke and ash in a land in ruin with volcanoes and rivers of lava, their great furnaces belching out soot and smoke darkening the sky above. The Chaos Dwarf's are Hashuts loyal servants, like Saruman with minds of metal and machines, their orc slaves hew down the forest for wood used to stoke the great furnaces Chaos Dwarfs use to create the machines and weapons of war.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Scion - 06-19-2009 08:29 AM

Interesting. Apart from their aren't any forests. I like that perspective. I like both of them. hmmmmmmmmmmm, could be a purpose for civil war in the Dark Lands. Makes quite cool fluff


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Alric - 06-19-2009 10:07 PM

Scion Wrote:
Interesting. Apart from their aren't any forests.


Thats because they would have cut all the forest down creating a vast plain of ruined land.

What do you mean by civil war ?

Have you read or seen Tolkiens 'Lord of the Rings' ? Saruman serves Sauron.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Hrothgar Goldgreed - 06-26-2009 06:54 PM

Quote:
Creating the Black Orcs, Grimgor couldn't exist without them.
Selling the Hellcannons to the Chaos tribesmen.
Raiding and trading along the silver road.
Being the reason behind the Ogre Leadbelchers
One of their slave uprisings likely led to the surge of orc activity that created the pact between nations that would eventually become the Empire.


Hmm, just wanted to add that Chaos Dwarfs pushed, in some way, Orcs and Goblins southwards, towards the Dwarven kingdoms ... with the 'Goblin Wars' as a result. It was one of the more serious wars around the downfall of the Golden Age of the Dwarfs.

To me, Hashut is a Chaos God like the other ones, although probably a lesser one as he isn't broadly worshipped. I must admit to like the idea of an evil Old One though.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - astragoth - 08-31-2009 10:57 AM

well, he IS called "the father of darkness" so why not...


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Patrikson - 09-01-2009 06:39 AM

Hes more of a heathen god how i imagine him


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Borador - 02-02-2010 05:50 PM

Hrothgar Goldgreed Wrote:

Quote:
Creating the Black Orcs, Grimgor couldn't exist without them.
Selling the Hellcannons to the Chaos tribesmen.
Raiding and trading along the silver road.
Being the reason behind the Ogre Leadbelchers
One of their slave uprisings likely led to the surge of orc activity that created the pact between nations that would eventually become the Empire.


Hmm, just wanted to add that Chaos Dwarfs pushed, in some way, Orcs and Goblins southwards, towards the Dwarven kingdoms ... with the 'Goblin Wars' as a result. It was one of the more serious wars around the downfall of the Golden Age of the Dwarfs.


And the creation of the black orcs almost led to the downfall of the empire ;D

To me hashut is hashut, he is a god on his own, and not like any of the others.


RE: Hashut the Old One! - Ronshank - 04-26-2010 12:25 AM

Why do we feel the need to catagorize Hashut? I like that he can be how ever we see him. And besides utimately it is up to GW and their own fluff to define him how they see fit. Meaning they could totally change his significance, remove him or expand upon him whenever they feel like it and because we our battling in their world their ideas will become the new cannon. In the mean time it's just fun to come up with explainations and our own ideas on things. And yes thanks to the popularity of the Hellcannon I can see GW coming up with an army list eventually especailly if this site keeps going on as strongly as it does.

Personally I think Hashut is just Hashut God of the Chaos dwarfs, tolerator of Acherons united campaign (which to me signifies that he is not against the chaos gods nor is he above aiding them)