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Khorne's Sword and Hashut?
Author MessageKhorne's Sword and Hashut?
Grimstonefire
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Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Grimstonefire 06-05-2010

Reading the Doc book, I see Khorne's Sword predates the Chaos Gods (p 85).

Which does beg the question of who/ what could have made it?

From what I gather there could have been gods long before the chaos gods, in the time they call the Time of Darkness.

Now, I know that in the realm of chaos time isn't linear, so technically the fact that it was made before the main chaos gods existed isn't totally relevant.

Bear in mind this is mostly just fan fiction, not that I'm seriously suggesting any of this is actually what would have happened. Wink

Just thought it would be interesting to consider if Hashut was one of the big powers around before the other gods became self aware.  This would raise questions as to what would be strong enough to empower him as a god.  Maybe the emotional pool he drew from was the burning ambition and greed of the other gods for power, and this was what made him strong.  Then when they became self aware and carved out their empires they overthrew the ancient weaponsmith god, and stole everything he had.  Including the sword.

Leaving poor old Hashut to languish in the abyss as one of the ancient gods of the time of darkness for countless millennia until some evil stunties find a temple for him.

Khorne does actually have rings with the symbols of fallen gods.


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This post was last modified: 06-05-2010 08:09 AM by Grimstonefire.

06-05-2010 07:16 AM
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Anonymouse
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Anonymouse 06-05-2010

Edit: I can't read. Should've read "Khorne" instead of "Khaine".

Silly me.

This post was last modified: 06-05-2010 07:35 AM by Anonymouse.

06-05-2010 07:21 AM
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Kered
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Kered 06-05-2010

That is a good Idea especially since Hashut is Known as the Farther of Darkness which fits in.
I would say Hushut is god of progress but I can't Think of any defining emotion, ambition and greed are all ready taken by Slaanesh and Tzeentch and the other characteristics of him such as industry are relatively new the the old world. Lastly about Khorn's sword  as I recall he claimed it from Tzeentch when he became "the strongest" of the chaos gods.


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06-05-2010 09:38 AM
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?lizardbrain 06-08-2010

When I hear Father of Darkness, I don't think of a lack of light (well, not only that), I imagine Hashut also being a god of jealously guarded secrets, of dark and evil intent/motive, and of people using the cover of darkness to get away with nasty and mean things.  Not scheming or ambition as they'd fall under Tzeench's domain, but the desire for secrecy and misdirection maybe.  From my understanding, not all the gods are created/empowered by specific emotions, just the four big chaos gods, for example the elven gods like Vaul god of the forge.  So for as long as there have been people using darkness to hide (which has been for ever), I think Hashut may have been around!

06-08-2010 01:25 AM
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saurus
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?saurus 06-08-2010

Three things
1) I may be wrong here, but wasnt Hashut originally a Greater Daemon Prince of Khrone, who challenged Khorne in combat and lost, fled and was trapped in a cave until, the Dwarfs freed him and he escaped. If I am correct, he cannot have predated Khorne.

2) Time travel is a possibility. Time and space in the warp mean little, and there are stories of people in  travelling through the warp' in 40k going back in time as a result of warp travel. So perhaps Khorne  went back in time to make the sword from materials that existed before he appeard,  but no longer existed after he appeared.

3) It doesnt say who made the sword, then it is possible that the Old Ones created the sword and Khorne stole it then corrupted it.

This post was last modified: 06-08-2010 07:29 AM by saurus.

06-08-2010 07:26 AM
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cornixt
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?cornixt 06-08-2010

Like a Great Taurus in a Cathay shop.
There's a lot more in the wiki than you think, check out the wiki contents

06-08-2010 08:15 AM
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Kered
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Post: #7
RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Kered 06-08-2010

I doubt that Hashut is Khorn/ Daemon Prince/ Greater Daemon of Khone unless he was warped in some way because he gave the Chaos Dwarfs control of magic which is very un-korny.


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06-08-2010 12:35 PM
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Drychnath
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Drychnath 06-27-2010

I like the suggestion of a remnant of a prior age - it even fits in fairly well with the presentation of being in the form of a bull (such direct animal links not being present in even the nature gods of the Wood Elves).  In relation to Hashut being the Father of Darkness, I direct your attention to the story "Beyond the Black River" by REH, and "Anansi Boys" by Neal Gaiman.  In the former, a god called Jebbal Sag is featured, who was once worshiped by animals and men; he was a god of primordial darkness, the night, and fear.  In Anansi Boys, the ancient African god-spirit of Tiger is the antagonist, whose worship was stories of cruelty, predation, violence, and those things lurking in the dark.

Thirdly, in reconciling the element of fire, we could steal a page (literally, one) from The Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin, where a priestess of Rhllor, a god of fire, commands shadows because they cannot exist without the light.

It could also be well argued that the elements of a god's portfolio need not be strictly complimentary.  For example, an Icon of Hashut might feature one horn of obsidian, the other of brass (or perhaps two separate sets).  One represents the darkness and fear, the other flame and industry.

Similar veins could be explored for Hashut overall.  I'm toying with the idea of a creation story in the same vein as those of indigenous myths.  If I get it written up in a satisfactory fashion, I will put it on here.

Also, a question for you, Grimstone - I've read a lot of your explanations for a new view of Chaos Dwarfs, and wondered what you would think of the idea of domination, rather than ambition, being the animus of Hashut.  The distinction is subtle in most people's minds, but I think it rather important for being more in keeping with the CD as we know them.  The issue is one of perspective, really.  Ambition is all about elevating yourself; domination is about reducing everything else to a lower level than you.  I submit as evidence of my claim that the latter better reflects Chaos Dwarfs the following, in no particular order:
-  Chaos Dwarfs do not colonize - their only city is Zharr Naggrund, and any other outpost is small scale or strictly military in purpose.
-  Chaos Dwarfs do not maintain alliances other than mercenary ones or those of convenience.
-  Chaos Dwarfs do not embark on large campaigns of military conquest.
-  Chaos Dwarfs do not propagate their religion - other peoples are for slavery or sacrifice.
-  Chaos Dwarfs do not propagate themselves - the city grows, but the strong implications are that the population of Dawi Zharr themselves is relatively stable or declining.  Slaves make up the majority of the population and expansion.

What do you think?

06-27-2010 09:49 PM
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Gar Shadowfame
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Post: #9
RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Gar Shadowfame 06-28-2010

gw melded 40k and wh histories ong time ago , the Old ones were before the chaos gods.

06-28-2010 03:57 AM
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Grimstonefire
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Grimstonefire 06-28-2010

@Drychnath
That is a great post, deserving of a few slaves actually.

The idea of domination over ambition is quite intriguing I think.

Put another way, if there were no other 'civilised' nations for thousands of miles in every direction, what would it achieve for them to have ambition?  Domination on the other hand is always a good reason, they have hundreds of thousands of greenskins, barbarian marauders and skaven surrounding them.

In terms of my fan fiction (not sure if you've read any of it) this would still work, as in my fluff (as it stands), hashut is seeking to become a more powerful god.  I can't remember if I phrased the reasons why as ambition or not, but domination would be a suitable reason.


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06-28-2010 09:06 AM
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Zuh-Khinie
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RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Zuh-Khinie 06-28-2010

Followers of Hashut always seem to be fighting against greenskins (more slaves), chaos (because they can) or dwarfs (vengeance).

If I interpret the official background correctly, it appears that Hashut only demands sacrifice, and isn't really seeking to broaden his field of influence.
He doesn't want to be worshipped in the Empire or wherever, he wants empiremen to be brought to him and slaughtered in all kinds of rituals.
If he is a deamonprince of Khorne, that would suffice for him to remain powerfull enough.
Also, because he is a deamonprince, he doesn't need followers to remain strong, he only needs the sacrifices needed to please his patron deity.
And... a deamon prince needn't necessarly follow all strictures set out by his patron... he needs to shed blood, but nobody ever said how it had to be shed.
By supplying weapons to all manner of chaoswarbands, Hashut has had a lot of blood spilt.


As an extra to support my theory that Hashut IS a Khorne deamonprince:
Hashut didn't gift magic to the chaos dwarfs... dwarfs have been able to cast magic for as long as I know.
In dwarven society, they're called stone mages, and are shunned by their kinsfolk. (check WFRP)
There was even a model made of a dwarven wizard somewhere in the 80s:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalo...rod1140287
he's the second one on the top row.
Every race in warhammer has the gift of magic, there are just some that are better at it.


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06-28-2010 01:11 PM
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Drychnath
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Post: #12
RE: Khorne's Sword and Hashut?Drychnath 07-02-2010

On the subject of being a Khorne Daemonprince - how would you reconcile the portfolio of the god of blood with giving patronage to a society ruled entirely by sorcerers?  Even their battles are defensive or motivated largely by commerce - the prospect of honorable combat for the sake of combat does not seem to enter in to Chaos Dwarven society.

Or is this something that came about by virtue of his suggested fall from grace?  That's an angle that might bear scrutiny.

07-02-2010 02:40 PM
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